Response to interpellation 2022/23:104 on statistics on household assets and debts
Translated from Swedish by AI; the translation may contain errors. The Swedish text is the original.
Summary AI, written in advance
The debate concerns statistics on household assets and debts. S argues that it is urgent to obtain statistics to safeguard financial stability 1 and that it is reasonable for authorities to receive data on household assets 2. S denies that they have any proposal to introduce a wealth tax 2. M argues that the government is following the regular preparation process and has not yet taken a position on the collection of data 3. M emphasizes that the government does not plan to introduce a wealth tax as it has damaged the business climate 4. M claims that S wants access to the statistics to design different types of wealth taxes 5.
Written by AI in advance and may contain errors. The numbers lead to the speech a statement builds on; check against the text below.
Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)
Madam Speaker! Ingela Nylund Watz has asked me when I and the government intend to return to the Riksdag with proposals to enable the collection of data on households' assets.
The investigation into statistics on household assets and debts, which is based on a motion from the Riksdag, submitted the report A new statistics on household assets and debts (SOU 2022:51) to the government in November 2022. The investigation proposes that statistics on household assets and debts should be compiled based on data from, among other things, various types of financial companies.
The Ministry of Finance referred the committee's report to authorities, municipalities, and other associations on 21 December 2022, and the consultation period expires on 21 April 2023. The consultation procedure aims, among other things, to find out what those affected by the proposal think of it and what support the proposal has. This means, in summary, that the government has not yet taken a position on whether the current collection of data on households' assets and debts shall be enabled.
Ingela Nylund Watz (S)
Madam Speaker! I would like to begin by thanking Minister Wykman for the answer, even though it was very brief.
In Sweden, as the Minister is well aware, we have for many years made decisions on measures to strengthen the financial stability in our country after the crises of the 90s, not least the financial crisis. We also see that further measures will be needed in the years ahead.
This interpellation concerns a specific area where we need to know more. We have good knowledge of household debt. That is good. But we know far too little about household assets. That is less good. It means that we in politics and the authorities responsible for safeguarding financial stability in Sweden do not have a comprehensive picture of the situation.
There are certainly many opinion-holders in the area. But there are no longer any reliable data because the information disappeared from the self-declaration in 2007, when the wealth tax was abolished. To this can also be added that the lack of that type of data complicates research in the area. It is unfortunate.
The high indebtedness of households has for several years been a significant cloud of concern. When interest rates rise and inflation is high, households' margins shrink considerably. It is an unpleasant fact. Against that background, the Riksbank's request from the spring of 2019 to investigate the possibilities of collecting statistics on households' assets as well is understandable. Had it been possible to do so, it would have already been done. But it turned out that the Riksbank made the correct assessment that there was no support in the legislation for it. Therefore, they turned to the Committee on Finance and requested an investigation into the area.
In 2019, the Committee on Finance made the decision regarding the announcement that the Minister mentions. To show how broad the consensus was, I shall quote what actually stood in the report. "A new detailed statistic on household assets and debts was needed so that the Riksbank and the Financial Supervisory Authority and potentially other relevant Swedish authorities could perform in-depth analyses of the debt development, carry out crisis prevention work, and counteract financial instability in Swedish society." It is noteworthy that the International Monetary Fund has also, for several years now, urged Sweden to collect and build up detailed statistics in this area.
In the investigation that the Ministry of Finance has sent out for consultation, there are concrete proposals. In the report, an entry into force on January 1, 2024, is proposed. There is a sense of urgency. We live in an uneasy world.
I respect that the Minister wants to await the referral response. But I do not think it is asking too much to find out today, when we are discussing the issue anyway, whether the Minister makes the same assessment as the Riksbank, the Finansinspektionen, the International Monetary Fund, and several others that that type of statistics is needed so that we can better safeguard financial stability in Sweden.
Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)
Madam Speaker! Sweden is in a very stressed situation. Much of this is, of course, due to the restless world situation with Russia's war in Ukraine. It is also not insignificant due to the energy policy and change that has occurred regarding Swedish energy production in recent years. We no longer have, for example, six nuclear reactors. We also have, just as the interpellor points out, problems with household and corporate debt.
As the authorities describe it, it is somewhat stressful, unclear or trying when it comes to how households and companies hold up in an environment with higher interest rates and high inflation. It is good that the Social Democrats also, via Ingela Nylund Watz, have insight into what problems Sweden has and that we need to meet them together.
I have accounted for the question regarding the statistics and the collection of statistics and what that process looks like in my answer. There was a mandate from the Riksdag. The Government handled it by appointing the inquiry. The inquiry has submitted its proposal. The proposal has now been sent out for consultation. After that, the usual preparation of the responses will take place. I believe that Ingela Nylund Watz also has respect for that process, that she thinks it is good and serves Sweden well that we have that type of order and regularity and do not have ministers who bypass the process. I believe that I and the member are fundamentally in agreement that it is a good order.
There is an elephant in the room here. If one wants that type of statistics, it is the Socialdemokraterna and Ingela Nylund Watz who, perhaps contrary to what she herself wants to do regarding, are a significant part of the worry and the problem. The Socialdemokraterna have, in fact, spoken about introducing new types of wealth taxes. They have called them slightly different things: millionaire tax or readiness tax. It was clear that they were going to target people's property in some way, because it was clearly signaled that real estate was a property that would be exempted. Then one must assume that it was property taxation.
Ingela Nylund Watz may correct me if I am wrong. But there was a discussion at the Social Democrats' party congress about that they perhaps did not want to go out with that they would have a wealth tax, but in any case could promise such a register as a potential first step? I believe that the Social Democrats and Ingela Nylund Watz would do the statistics issue a favor by clarifying their true motives behind wanting this, if there is a connection to a wealth tax, how the discussion at the party congress looked and if this was part of the discussion or not.
If many have the feeling that this is actually an interest of the Social Democrats as a first step towards introducing a wealth tax, it is clear that many become worried. It evokes a certain resistance. The wealth tax contributed to Sweden having serious problems with the business climate, job creation, growth and, in the long run, the welfare and its financing.
I believe that the person who can contribute most to moving the discussion and the process forward is Ingela Nylund Watz. If one can assure and promise that this has nothing to do with wealth tax and that the Social Democrats will absolutely never introduce such a tax, I believe it would become easier for many to engage in the discussion.
Ingela Nylund Watz (S)
Madam Speaker! I regret that the Minister, instead of deepening the discussion on the need that the Riksbank and the Finansinspektionen see, that is that Sweden should gain increased knowledge about the households' entire situation, is instead starting to argue about the Social Democrats' party congresses or whether the Social Democrats want to introduce a wealth tax or not. We gave clear statements about that before the election. Minister Wykman knows that. But Minister Wykman is now using attacks as the best defense on the issue.
It is unfortunate that we cannot have a calm and objective discussion about the fact that our two heavy authorities in Sweden, together with the IMF, wish to obtain the tool to see what the asset side looks like for the Swedish households as well. I believe it would be good if we could have such a calm and sensible discussion.
As I said in my first post, I have great respect for the fact that the preparatory process in the Government Offices should take its course. But I think it is a bit greedy to squeeze Minister Wykman on the Moderaternas' [Moderates'] position on the issue, since the Minister represents the Moderaternas' position on the issue. The Moderaternas in the Finance Committee were, according to the quote I previously read out, in agreement. It would be liberating if we could get a hint about the Minister's direction on the issue.
Could it be that the Minister feels a certain uncertainty regarding whether the largest party in the government support, Sverigedemokraterna, would put forward a bill in this area or say stop? Sverigedemokraterna was the only party in the Committee on Finance that opposed moving forward with the announcement which then became the Riksdag's decision. In the Tidö Agreement, it is clearly regulated that every bill, every policy letter, and in large part every measure and step the government takes shall be anchored with all cooperating parties in the government support.
As a parenthesis in this context, we can also note that the Minister's lack of clear answers on the matter becomes even more concerning in light of the fact that the government now, despite massive criticism from the Council on Legislation, wants to keep information on how the electricity support falls out under secrecy for 20 years. It is a position that would align well with those who do not consider it necessary to know what the households' assets look like, Madam Speaker.
But regardless of what the actual reasons are for why the Minister today cannot provide an announcement on whether any proposition will come from the government in line with the investigation's proposals or the wishes of the Riksbank, the Financial Supervisory Authority, and the Riksdag, I think it is urgent now because of the inflation, the interest rates, the war in Ukraine, and the recession that we are heading into. We are being pressured, both socially and individually. It is urgent to get some type of announcement from the Minister because we live in a very uncertain time, just as the Minister also said.
If the Minister does not think this path is appropriate – does the Minister then have any other idea of how one could meet the wish of the Riksbank, the Finansinspektionen, the IMF, and several other actors to create a comprehensive picture of households' assets and debts in Sweden in order to better safeguard financial stability?
Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)
Madam Speaker! First and foremost, I think Ingela Nylund Watz's enthusiasm is good. It is good to discuss this type of questions.
One could possibly say that enthusiasm has caused Ingela Nylund Watz to raise this question a bit too early. I represent the government, and as Ingela Nylund Watz knows, the government has done exactly what can be expected here. A mandate came from the Riksdag which led to an investigation whose proposals have been sent for consultation, and now we await comments which will then be analyzed in the good, sensible, democratic spirit that we have in Sweden. When the consultation responses have been received and the analysis is complete, there are of course reasons to discuss what is contained in them.
What raises a number of questions for many is what the Social Democrats' motives are for wanting this statistics so badly. Ingela Nylund Watz neither confirmed nor denied whether a wealth tax or a register of wealth was a central issue at your party congress. Was it a compromise or not that one instead wants this statistics? Does Ingela Nylund Watz view this as a first step towards introducing a wealth tax?
Ingela Nylund Watz's assessment is correct. The Social Democrats were clear during the election campaign regarding whether some form of wealth tax would be introduced or not. It was called slightly different things, for example, readiness tax and millionaire tax. It had slightly different names, but all aimed at taxing wealth. It is clear that if one wants to introduce wealth taxes, one needs this type of asset register in one way or another.
Ingela Nylund Watz can either confirm that the Social Democrats absolutely do not intend to introduce a wealth tax, or be honest, open, and transparent towards those listening to this debate and say that it is a motive for wanting this statistics. It can be one or the other.
At the core, it is obviously the case that people are very tired of what Ingela Nylund Watz just did. She led a discussion about the Sverigedemokraterna, a discussion that actually is about something else even if one doesn't say it, and turned everything into some kind of political game or gag.
The authorities' claims for statistics are, of course, entirely legitimate. Just as is also implied, such statistics can certainly look different in different ways. I think it is legitimate that authorities request statistics that are as good as possible. The question, however, is why Ingela Nylund Watz and the Socialdemokraterna are requesting this statistics. I believe that openness, honesty, and transparency from Ingela Nylund Watz and the Socialdemokraterna's side would facilitate a constructive discussion on how to move forward.
Let me be very clear that the government has no plans to introduce a wealth tax. We have seen what such a tax did to Sweden. It made it very difficult with generational shifts in companies. It caused us to have a poor entrepreneurship climate. It caused investors to look towards other countries. It caused us to have an outflow of capital from the country. All of this contributed to the major macroeconomic problems that Sweden once had with a lack of employment, entrepreneurship, and innovation and transition capacity in the Swedish economy. It is not a path that this government intends to take.
Ingela Nylund Watz has every opportunity to return and be clear as to whether these statistics should be used to tax wealth or if, on behalf of the Social Democrats, she can promise that a wealth tax based on the type of asset classes she wants to map out among households will absolutely not be introduced.
Ingela Nylund Watz (S)
Madam Speaker! I note that Minister Wykman continues to be quarrelsome regarding the wealth tax. I stated clearly in my previous contribution that the Social Democrats have no proposal to introduce a wealth tax in Sweden, and Minister Wykman knows that.
It is also interesting in this context that the Minister emphasizes the need for openness and transparency. It might be a bit awkward for a representative of a government that, for 20 years, has wanted to classify the information regarding what electricity support households in Sweden receive as secret. It is a procedure that is completely apart when it comes to the Swedish principle of public access. I think it was a bit bold.
My point in raising this question today is that we are heading into a situation in the Swedish and European economy, and in the global economy, that is very shaky. We have a concern with the high household debt in Sweden - that is what the Minister and I agree on.
If the Minister thinks it is uncomfortable that the Social Democrats think it is reasonable to introduce a possibility for authorities responsible for safeguarding financial stability to also receive data on household assets, he can well ignore that. It is still the case that the requirement comes from precisely those authorities that have that responsibility.
I feel that we as legislators have a responsibility to, if possible, meet the requests from the authorities - in this case, above all the Riksbank and the Finansinspektionen. I regret if it is the case that Minister Wykman - who, moreover, also actually wants to abolish the amortization requirement and increase financial instability - is not prepared to provide clearer statements on this issue now, as the crisis is at the door.
Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)
Madam Speaker! This government will always safeguard financial stability. This government will always be on the side of the households and ensure that we have a secure and reliable financial system.
Ingela Nylund Watz engages in wordplay. The fact that the Social Democrats do not have a proposal does not mean that the Social Democrats will not have a proposal on wealth tax the day they have access to information on household finances at a detailed level and can tax it in that way. That is the question being asked, and it is the question that Ingela Nylund Watz gives no answer to.
The Social Democrats also have proposals for different types of wealth taxes, even if they are called readiness tax, millionaire tax, and so on. One must therefore believe that Ingela Nylund Watz wants access to this statistics in order to be able to proceed with the design of those proposals. That one does not have it does not mean that one will not have it; that is understood by people who listen to this.
The electricity support lies outside this debate. Spontaneously, I can note a number of arguments that might make one hesitant about whether one should be able to request a neighbor's electricity bill. I also wonder where one turns to request detailed information about households' electricity bills in cases where previous electricity support has been paid out. One can wonder how wise it is that international competitors to large Swedish companies should be able to request detailed information about their electricity consumption. I also think about whether a woman who has been abused by her husband—should that man then be able to find out if she still lives in the villa by requesting the electricity consumption?
Ingela Nylund Watz obviously thinks such things. Personally, I think there are quite a few difficult questions to answer before one thinks it is a self-evident good idea to give each other detailed information about each other's lives in that way. For Ingela Nylund Watz, however, there seems to be no limit to how much information one should collect about each other, regardless of whether it concerns one's assets or other things in one's private life. Let me say that the government has a somewhat more pragmatic and reality-oriented view on this issue.
Source: The Swedish Parliament. The speeches come from the open data of the Riksdag, translated into English by AI, which may contain errors.