Response to interpellation 2022/23:291 on the future of Musikaliska kvarteret

Kulturministern Parisa Liljestrand (M)

Mr. Speaker! I have been asked how I view the significance of Musikaliska kvarteret for the music life and the music offerings in Sweden, how I act to safeguard and promote Musikaliska kvarteret and its activities, and whether I intend to provide funds in upcoming budgets as well as initiate a dialogue with other funders of Musikaliska kvarteret's activities to enable long-term stability and a development of the activities.

I am glad that the future of Musikaliska kvarteret engages many. It is a commitment that I share. The national cultural policy goals state, among other things, that everyone shall have the same opportunity to participate in cultural life. As Minister for Culture, I am therefore keen that there should be a rich and varied range of culture in different forms and that it should be accessible to everyone. That is what a vibrant and sustainable cultural life looks like.

Musikaliska kvarteret is a unique place of great significance for the music and cultural offerings in Stockholm as well as for the entire country. The property has high cultural-historical values and houses a wide range of musical activities. It is important that such activities that benefit a broad audience, artistic practice, and the cultural infrastructure can continue to be operated and developed.

The property where Musikaliska kvarteret is located, at Nybrokajen in Stockholm, is owned by the state and managed by Statens fastighetsverk. It is therefore Statens fastighetsverk that is responsible for matters concerning rental conditions with tenants.

Regarding the economic means for the activities in Musikaliska kvarteret, I cannot anticipate upcoming budget processes. I can, however, state that Kungliga Musikaliska Akademien, which is one of the actors operating in the premises, has for a long time been identified by the government as a nationally culturally important actor in the Swedish Arts Council's regulatory letter and thus also receives grants from the Swedish Arts Council. This naturally also applies during the current year, 2023.

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Amanda Lind (MP)

Mr. Speaker! We need a vibrant music and cultural life, and that also in our city centers. We need accessible meeting places and musical oases for the soul, not just for commerce. Development where we see venues for culture and music in our city centers either forced to close down due to too high rent levels or moved out of the city center is naturally unfortunate.

The property Musikaliska Akademien at Nybrokajen 11 was inaugurated as early as 1877. It is Sweden's first concert hall, built specifically for higher musical education. It accommodates a wide range of genres - stages and spaces for folk and world music, jazz, contemporary art music, pop music, classical music and so-called early music from the Baroque and Middle Ages, but also for other live music. It also functions as a national hub for many of these genres.

The mobilization around Musikaliska kvarteret has been enormous. I personally received a petition with over 27,000 names that was handed over to the Riksdag's Committee on Finance and Culture a couple of weeks ago and which I know has also reached the Minister for Culture. It concerns musicians, artists, organizers, and an engaged audience from all over Sweden who see Musikaliska kvarteret as an obvious hub and want the activity to be developed, not phased out.

I can state that the Minister for Culture does not give a particularly exhaustive answer to my questions. Admittedly, it is good that the Minister for Culture sees the value of the activities in the house, but how does the minister act concretely to promote and protect them? The Minister says that she shares the commitment, but how does she demonstrate it in practice? This is not merely a question of rent setting, Mr. Speaker. It is about a culturally valuable activity in a culturally and historically valuable building that everyone says they want to protect and which now risks being struck into ruins, and furthermore when the state is the landlord. It is, of course, completely unreasonable.

It is also about work that has been carried out for several years to develop the activities in the block. It is work that has been able to be done with the support of funds from Statens kulturråd, among other things to be able to bring in more money to the activities so that the cultural activities can stand more firmly on commercial feet. Without restaurant kitchens, without the possibility to play on all stages at the same time, without more toilets and a functioning fire protection system, for example, it is impossible to run a rational operation.

It is pleasing that Blåsarsymfonikerna and other activities in the building have stated they are prepared to pay more rent if the premises function in a satisfactory manner. As it stands now, the rental process between the parties is difficult. An appeals process would take the activities a long time, and I have also not heard what is happening with the development work in the building. If the rent remains at the level that is currently notified without concrete information regarding the development of the property, it will be impossible for the activities to remain. This applies in particular to Blåsarsymfonikerna, which is indeed the guarantor for the block's development.

My questions are now: How does the Minister for Culture view the development project Musikaliska kvarteret? Does the Minister for Culture have any announcements regarding what will happen with it? What does the Minister for Culture do concretely to safeguard the activities in Musikaliska kvarteret? Does the Minister for Culture plan to drive a supplement to the culture budget to enable both that the activities remain and that the quarter shall be developed into the flourishing oasis that it has the possibility to continue to be?

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Emma Ahlström Köster (M)

Mr. Speaker! There is no doubt that the question of culture and culture's meeting places and stages engages us from all political sides and corners.

But this question is not new. It can easily appear that way when listening to the interpellation debate that is ongoing, but it is old and long-standing. The question has been relevant for decades. The Minister for Culture has been in his post for barely six months. I think it is a bit optimistic that we today expect a complete solution to such a long-standing problem in such a short time. Not because the question is not important, but we must put it in relation to how long it has been relevant.

I want to assert that previous governments have had good ambitions in this issue. They have wanted to lift and work towards a long-term rental model. But I do not see that the investigations have resulted in a decision. I believe that shows that it is a complex and difficult issue, which we share, and which we obviously must find a solution to.

I am pleased that our minister takes the issue seriously, without in any way intervening and controlling the authorities that have been entrusted to act. Ministerial rule is nothing that we practice in Sweden or want to be anywhere near. The current minister can in no way take the blame for such a protracted issue, but I want to emphasize my confidence in her and in the authorities that have now been entrusted to resolve the issue. That is where it must continue, that is to say that the discussion must continue between tenant and landlord going forward.

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TJÄNSTGÖRANDE ÅLDERSPRESIDENTEN

I would like to remind the members that the correct designation is "Mr. Speaker of the House".

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Peter Ollén (M)

Mr. Speaker! Statens fastighetsverk has over 2,000 properties that it manages in the country. The idea when it was divided was that Vasakronan should have the commercial properties and Statens fastighetsverk should take care of the properties where there was no commercial interest. Many of these also have a cost-recovery rent, but the rent is simply what is seen to cost to run the operations.

When it comes to just Musikaliska, it can be noted that Miljöpartiet has sat for eight years - or at least in seven of the eight years - in the position of Minister for Culture without doing anything about this. This is, of course, because Statens fastighetsverk falls under the Ministry of Finance and the Minister for Finance and not at all under the Minister for Culture. Furthermore, we do not have ministerial rule in Sweden. That means we in the Riksdag can talk and have opinions, but a minister cannot have opinions on what the authorities do.

Let us continue to fight here in the chamber for Musikaliska and for the other important activities that exist across the country and which are conducted in properties belonging to Statens fastighetsverk! But I cannot quite see where a Minister for Culture fits into that picture.

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Lawen Redar (S)

Mr. Speaker! The Vigadó Concert Hall in Budapest was founded in 1856. The Musikverein in Vienna was founded in 1870. The Beethovenhalle in Bonn was also founded in 1870. They were, in their time, concert halls and venues for academic music education. They have been renovated today. They attract audiences from all over the world. And there, music is played at the highest level in the evenings.

Bonn, Vienna and Budapest have preserved these beautiful buildings. They have not deviated from the idea that the properties should promote culture-practicing musicians and their audience. They are living cultural houses in culturally significant cities.

These three examples once provided inspiration for what would become the Royal Swedish Academy of Music's house at Nybrokajen 11 in Stockholm. The house was inaugurated, as was stated here earlier, in 1877 and then housed the higher music education in the country, including the Royal Swedish Academy of Music and its library. In the hall, the very first awarding of the Nobel Prize took place. It thus has a cultural-historical value, not only for Stockholm but for our entire country.

Since 2011, Blåsarsymfonikerna has operated the house under the name Musikaliska kvarteret. It is a unique place with great cultural-historical values. As previously mentioned, it is a musical breadth - from early classical music to folk and world music, jazz, contemporary art music, and more.

Mr. Speaker! Unlike how it is in Bonn, Vienna and Budapest, basic renovations have not been carried out in this property. But in order to be able to conduct a public-friendly operation, fire safety measures must be taken. There needs to be an opportunity to conduct parallel concerts on the four different stages, and expanded public areas need to be made possible. Statens fastighetsverk itself said as recently as 2022 that in order to be able to charge a market-rate rent, an adaptation of the premises is unavoidable.

Since the pandemic, Blåsarsymfonikerna have intensified their dialogue regarding the future with Statens fastighetsverk. Blåsarsymfonikerna received restart support to, among other things, develop a plan for the further development of Musikaliska Akademien, and in February 2022, a situation report was submitted to the government. It has been met positively by all involved actors.

But during the autumn of 2022, the dialogue was paused. Instead, a significantly increased rent was presented for the operations in the building, this without a necessary adaptation of the premises.

Mr. Speaker! I am concerned about the Minister for Culture's policy and lack of engagement, which actually leads to the risk that Stockholm, our country's capital and showcase, will become a silent city. We are going against the current. Major cultural policy initiatives are being made in Copenhagen, in Oslo, in Helsinki, in Berlin, in Paris, and in Vienna. We see a different development in Stockholm. Here, operations are to be shut down. Here, rents are to be raised. Here, free admission to state museums is to be abolished. Here, there is to be reduced space for culture and civic meetings.

I ask myself how the Minister for Culture views the mobilization that has now been seen from Stockholmers and engaged people across the country for this house and for the activities that exist in the building. Over 30,000 names have been collected. What does the Minister for Culture intend to do to strengthen the showcase that Stockholm should constitute for culture and for the innovation of culture in our country?

In conclusion, I want to mention what Member Ahlström Köster and Member Ollén point out. Both mention that this has been an issue for a long time. But the rental issue specifically has actually arisen during the time that the Minister for Culture has been in their position. Thus, this is a task for the sitting government to handle.

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Kulturministern Parisa Liljestrand (M)

Mr. Speaker! I thank you for the questions. I must nevertheless point out what has already been said a number of times here. There are, of course, different areas of responsibility within our departments in the government. For me and the Ministry of Culture, this is primarily about monitoring and enabling culture throughout the city but also throughout the country, and about monitoring the interests that belong to cultural life. Musical interests are, of course, part of what we monitor and promote through various types of measures.

Today, several of the activities in Musikaliska receive grants via the Swedish Arts Council. But other types of grants are also given, and other measures are taken. Grants are given via the Swedish Arts Council (Konstnärsnämnden). The Arts Council also has special assignments linked to strengthening and broadening musical expressions throughout the country and thereby creating the type of supporting measures that are required. Even through these grants, Musikaliska currently has support. It is, of course, very good.

When it comes to the question of rent setting, it is Statens fastighetsverk that needs to have that dialogue and who has that dialogue with the tenant. It is nothing that I should enter into or even can enter into. If we had that order, it would be very strange. I am glad we do not have that order in Sweden. This is something that must be handled via the agency and the authority together with the tenant.

When it comes to the announced rent increases, I know that the different parties disagree on what a market rent is in this case. But I also understand that the parties have an ongoing dialogue about this. I am, of course, following that development in exactly the same way as I know my colleague Minister Wykman, who is responsible for SFV, does.

Member of Parliament Lawen Redar does not need to worry about my commitment to cultural life, whether in the capital or in the rest of the country. When it comes to the issues that the member raised in their post regarding whether different types of development need to take place in our cultural properties, I believe we are in complete agreement. It is clear that actions will need to be taken. We have properties of cultural-historical value, and we must take care of them in different ways.

But already in 2019, something was actually established specifically regarding Musikaliska kvarteret. The government at that time established in the supplementary budget that the property Ladugårdsbron may be sold, but that any potential sale shall be preceded by an analysis of the conditions for the operations and so on.

I find that interesting, because it means that this has been on the current government's table since 2019. But one actually did nothing more with it.

I believe that we are all driven by the same thing. We want well. Therefore, I think it is good that we speak openly about what is and that we look towards the future with clear eyes instead of trying to accuse each other of things that are not.

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Amanda Lind (MP)

Mr. Speaker! Thank you, Minister, for the answer!

I experience that both the Minister for Culture and the members are answering questions that have not been asked and claims that have not been made. It is actually the case that the sale made possible in the supplementary budget received a clause which meant that the conditions for the operations should be analyzed more closely, as well as that both the Musical Academy's and the Blåsarsymfonikernas needs for access to suitable premises should be taken into account. It was therefore not a carte blanche for a sale.

The question has not been relevant since then. On the contrary, over several years, a rather exciting and fantastic development work has taken place, which was described by both parties as fruitful until this autumn, partially funded by Statens kulturråd. The operations themselves have also contributed funds.

This is a process that I, in my previous role as Minister for Culture, have followed and found to be exciting and interesting. The question of a sale has never been on the table. It was in the autumn when the sitting government and the current Minister for Culture had taken office that the question of a rent increase arose. The question regarding the investigation into cost and market rents does not concern this property but other properties, so this too is an attempt to mix up the cards, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased with the Moderate MPs' commitment to the issue, and I am pleased that the Minister for Culture says that this is something that one wants to see how one can support moving forward. But I still have not received answers to my questions. How does the Minister for Culture view the development project Musikaliska kvarteret? It is a cultural policy issue and not a question of rent setting. It is about how Early Music Sweden should be able to develop into a hub for Baroque and medieval music - a national stage as they see it - and it is about how Stallet, the folk and world music scene that is unique in Sweden, should be able to continue its activities. It is also about how the diversity and genre breadth in Musikaliska kvarteret should be able to stand on its own feet to a greater extent.

Statens fastighetsverk has itself stated that this is not something they intend to support with any form of culture rent, and then the question returns to the Minister for Culture and to the other funders: Are you prepared to allocate in the budget to enable such a development? It is, to the highest degree, a cultural policy issue. What does it have to do with ministerial rule, Mr. Speaker? It is important to repeat that this is not just a question of rent setting but a question of a productive development project that everyone says they protect and an operation that runs an imminent risk of having to leave the premises.

I would like to hear from the Minister for Culture, once again, whether the government is prepared to act to enable the development of this site. How does the Minister for Culture view the risk that there will be nothing to analyze in the event of a sale if the activities are no longer present in the premises due to high rent?

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Emma Ahlström Köster (M)

Mr. Speaker! Thank you for the dialogue and the discussion! I appreciate everyone's commitment, and I believe we all do, as we have mentioned and discussed.

I believe that Member Lind's perception that we are answering questions that have not been asked is due to the fact that there is a history in the matter. Yes, the rent setting is new and has been added now, but this is just another link in a long discussion that has existed regarding what the rents should look like for these scenes and on what terms they should be operated so that we can, in the long term, be able to take part in them.

That is why I think it is important that we look a little backward in order to be able to aim forward. I think the Minister for Culture has answered well regarding the commitment and the heart that exists for culture, but she also shows a sense of reality with both feet on the ground when it comes to rents and that it must happen in a fair way without her, as minister, going in and directing what the rents should look like. The Minister has also been clear about which grants already exist in favor of Musikaliska kvarteret.

We will have to see how the discussion lands moving forward, and I want to emphasize that the dialogue regarding the rents needs to continue between the tenants and those who rent out. That is where it should land.

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Peter Ollén (M)

Mr. Speaker! One could first say that the budgets of recent years have been pandemic support. If the Riksdag were to decide on that type of budget in the long run, it would not be long before the country was bankrupt. It was an exceptional situation, and one must therefore see how it was economically before that.

I think it is important to remind that the Riksdag's work is for the whole country. I am very happy that we have this commitment, and I am myself incredibly fond of Musikaliska and have been there quite a bit over the years. Therefore, I hope that we also find corresponding commitment when it comes to culture in the rest of the country and not just for this specific one because it is located in central Stockholm.

I also want to remind that during these six months, decisions have been made to renovate the Opera. There has been an acute need for a very long time, but nothing has happened under previous ministers and governments. And as recently as last week, a decision was made to allocate over 600 million kronor specifically for school books, which will be a huge boost both for the children and for the school libraries.

I think that a considerable amount is also being invested throughout the whole country.

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Lawen Redar (S)

Mr. Speaker! This debate has ended up in a limbo. Statens fastighetsverk stated in a press release the other day that the question of Musikaliska Akademien ultimately is a question for the Riksdag and the Government. The government representative in today's debate, as well as the Minister for Finance whom we called to the Riksdag's Culture Committee, expressed that it is Statens fastighetsverks responsibility.

I will be clear and say that both I and Member Lind stand up for Axel Oxenstierna's principles that we should not have ministerial rule in Sweden. But if we believe somewhere that this is a building of national cultural-historical value, we must have a commitment. Blåsarsymfonikerna, Musikaliska Akademien, Stallet, Early Music Sweden, Blinda Tigern and several others have such an important value and should be in the property. It is clear that they can be somewhere else, but it is about the entire pressure and about letting a capital city be a guiding star in the cultural policy innovation work.

The members of the committee know that I have a great commitment to developing culture throughout the country, but I am from Stockholm. I am proud of this city, and I also see what is happening in the other capitals. Look at Oslo, look at Helsinki, look at Copenhagen, look at Paris, look at Berlin – all these cities receive support from the state to develop their cultural policy work with buildings and with innovation to serve as a showcase for their country. That is also what I wish for Stockholm, but what I see here outside is that we once again have shortages at the state museums. There is a lack of opportunities for families with children to participate in art and culture.

The area that Musikaliska kvarteret is to be when Slussen is completed is a place for art, culture, and innovation. Therefore, I conclude this debate by saying that I truly wish that the Minister for Culture takes action and invests in ensuring that this becomes a building that stands for culture even in the future.

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Kulturministern Parisa Liljestrand (M)

Mr. Speaker! Member Lind asks how we view this activity. It is clear that from the government's side, we see the activity as extremely valuable, which I also said in my opening remarks. It is important that the activity can continue to be conducted and developed and, above all, continue to be accessible to the general public just as it is today, actually regardless of which premises it is conducted in. A premises, regardless of whether it has cultural-historical value or not, is just an empty shell before it is filled with activity.

Just this premises has other values, just like many other premises we see when we look out over a Stockholm that is rich in cultural history. But just as I said earlier, this means that we must take care of the buildings and the technology around the buildings as well as the activities.

In this case, there is a division within the government regarding who should take care of what. My responsibility is to ensure that the activities can continue to be conducted. The premises, the shell itself, the government has a responsibility over, but in this case, the responsibility is to continue the ongoing dialogue between Statens fastighetsverk and Musikaliska.

This is not something that has come up during the autumn, as it sounds in some of the speeches, but this is prompted by a two-year negotiation. The negotiation has been ongoing for two years. Just as Member Lind says, the negotiation has taken place under good conditions and agreement has been reached on the distribution in different parts, that is to say that efforts shall be made to correspond to a market-based rent.

But the word that has not been mentioned from the rostrum today is market-based rent. The National Property Board makes the assessment of what a market-based rent is. It is that assessment that forms the basis for the rental situation that prevails today, where the National Property Board has, as far as I know, an ongoing conversation with Musikaliska regarding what it entails for the operations and for the rent setting. We must naturally promote that the conversation goes as well as it can in every way we can, but there are still principles regarding how we set the rent. Those principles can naturally be questioned, and that was why I highlighted the proposal that came in 2019 and where the government established that the possibility exists to sell if one wishes.

This is one way to manage cultural-historical properties. Another way is to renovate them. When Member Redar says he looks out over Stockholm and sees various cultural-historical values, I look out over a Stockholm where I naturally also see things that we need to do, things where decisions should have been made a long time ago. We cannot do everything at once. But to believe that we can get all the decisions in place in six months is naive. We must take one thing at a time, and we must do the right things in the right order. Above all, the right authorities must handle the right issues, and we must be very careful not to interfere in matters where we actually risk destroying more than we help.

It is important that the activity can continue to be conducted, promoted, and made available in various ways, regardless of in which premises it is conducted in the future.

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Amanda Lind (MP)

Mr. Speaker! I thank the Minister for Culture for the debate.

I know that many are involved in the activities currently being carried out at Musikaliska kvarteret, who are certainly following the debate. I know that the over 27,000 people who have signed the petition are surely very interested in the Minister for Culture's announcement in the debate tonight.

I want to continue to be positive, based on the commitment I hear from members Ahlström Köster, Ollén and the Minister for Culture regarding the desire to continue to safeguard the value of the operations. In a positive scenario, the Minister for Culture is prepared to provide funds to support in the event that the rent negotiations do not end in a way that fits within the operations' current budgets. But I do not hear this; instead, I hear the Minister for Culture saying that the premises actually do not have any significance. That is a more disheartening message from the Minister for Culture.

Nowhere in the debate have I or Member Lawen Redar asserted that we should cross the line of the principle of ministerial rule. We have talked about the budget and about cultural policy commitment for important activities. The activities that exist in central parts of Stockholm are also accessible and function as a hub, not least for the somewhat narrower music and art forms within Musikaliska Kvarterets activities.

The property is a listed building, and the entire building is covered by protection regulations. It is not possible to conduct just any activity in the house. The dynamics that prevail there now are unique, and I mean that the integrity of the premises is worth preserving.

Fruitful development work has taken place over several years. My hope is that something will be reached that can make Musikaliska kvarteret flourish forward, and I wish that the Minister for Culture is also prepared to work in that direction.

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Kulturministern Parisa Liljestrand (M)

Mr. Speaker! I would nevertheless like to emphasize that within the framework of state support for the cultural sector, significant support has been awarded and paid out to Musikaliska kvarteret. This is positive, and I share the commitment that exists here for the activities that shall also continue to be operated and developed. I will follow the development closely.

Member of the Board Lind seems to have misunderstood me in her closing remarks when she interprets me as saying that the premises are of no importance. That is not what I have said. What I have said is that premises, regardless of whether they are of cultural-historical value or not, are de facto just a place before they are filled with life, with activity. The activities that exist today within the framework of the place, we must ensure are preserved, protected, and made accessible for even more.

Then we can continue the discussion on the budget. I believe that Member Lind and Member Redar know very well what budget processes look like and that they cannot be preceded in a conversation in the chamber. But naturally, the issue does not only concern the 27,000 who have signed the petitions or us who are sitting here today, but it is our collective work that will lead to us being able to safeguard the operations and hopefully get the best of them for the well-being of Stockholm and Sweden.

The interpellations debate was hereby concluded.

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