Response to interpellation 2023/24:296 on measures to reduce over-indebtedness and economic inequalities in society

Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)

Madam Speaker, members of the House! Ida Ekeroth Clausson has asked Minister for Finance Elisabeth Svantesson what the Minister intends to do to reduce the over-indebtedness and the economic gaps in society. The interpellation has been handed over to me.

The interpellor has previously asked similar questions on March 15, June 5, and October 10.

The Government takes the questions regarding over-indebtedness and economic vulnerability seriously and is working on developing measures to counteract the problems highlighted by the questioner.

We have a serious economic situation, and the government is working broadly and long-term to curb inflation, which is the root of many of the economic problems that people face. We also support the economically most vulnerable households. In the budget bill for 2024, the government has, among other things, proposed that the temporary increase of the housing allowance be extended for an additional six months until June 30, 2024. We are also lowering a number of different taxes, including the tax for low and normal incomes.

The Government is working focusedly on the issue of individual over-indebtedness. The over-indebtedness inquiry has submitted a report containing proposals aimed at reducing over-indebtedness among individuals. The proposals are now being prepared within the Government Offices. It can also be mentioned that in a regulatory letter for 2024, the Swedish Enforcement Authority has been tasked with directing preventive measures towards extra vulnerable groups to reduce the risk of over-indebtedness and increase the possibilities for persons who have been denied their application for debt restructuring to resolve their financial situation. In addition, the Consumer Agency has been tasked with carrying out measures to strengthen the support for municipal budget and debt counseling.

The Government continues to follow the developments in the consumer credit market and works to ensure appropriate consumer protection. In this context, it can be mentioned that a new consumer credit directive was recently adopted. The directive aims, among other things, to strengthen the consumer's position in the consumer credit market.

The Government has also given the Swedish Financial Supervisory Authority (Finansinspektionen) the collective commercial law supervision responsibility over consumer credit institutions. This means a unified supervision of credit assessments made by lenders who are under the supervision of the Swedish Financial Supervisory Authority (Finansinspektionen).

In the spring, the government commissioned the Swedish Competition Authority and the National Institute of Economic Research to analyze the competition situation and price developments within the grocery trade and other industries where lack of competition may be considered a cause of increased prices.

In addition, it can be mentioned that the government has submitted a bill with a proposal that a written requirement should be introduced for telephone sales of gambling for money. The requirement aims to strengthen the protection for consumers.

Since the interpellator reported that she was prevented from attending the meeting, the second deputy speaker granted that Niklas Karlsson (S) instead participated in the interpellation debate.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Niklas Karlsson (S)

Madam Speaker! Thank you, Minister, for the answer! During the autumn, we in various media and news broadcasts have been able to see what is happening with the increased indebtedness in our country. "Debt mountain at the Enforcement Authority at the highest ever" and "Young people's debts continue to increase" are just some of the headlines we have read during the autumn.

The Swedish Enforcement Authority, which works with these issues, shows how the increase has looked and assesses that it continues moving forward. What is perhaps particularly serious in this context are the young people who fall into the debt trap. We know from experience that if one falls into such a situation at an early age, it also becomes problematic to later in life get one's life in order and get out of the debt trap that one has fallen into.

The other day, the Swedish Financial Supervisory Authority also released a report following up on the same thing, financial well-being and general health in Sweden. In it, the Swedish Financial Supervisory Authority writes that the economic situation limits the possibility of doing things that are important. It creates worry and stress. One in three has had difficulty covering ongoing expenses such as food and rent during the last twelve months.

The arguments are, of course, known. Just as the Minister states in his answer, Ida Ekeroth Clausson has at four previous occasions posed these questions to the government, and there are also other members of the Swedish Riksdag who have raised this. The message to the Minister is probably that he must get used to coming to the chamber to talk about this, because it concerns a serious and worrying development that we must break.

I can state that the government is taking many and actually also good measures as the Minister reports in his interpellation answer. It concerns housing benefits and the over-indebtedness investigation, which is now being addressed, even if perhaps somewhat late, one might think, at least when one sits in opposition. The government steers through regulatory letters and gives assignments to the Consumer Agency and sets additional requirements in, for example, telephone sales.

It is good, absolutely excellent. These are necessary and important measures. But the indebtedness we now see in our country, which is increasing and trapping more and more people in debt and creating anxiety and stress, is also a symptom of something else. It is a symptom of increased poverty and increased economic inequalities. Then one can broaden the discussion. That was also one of the reasons why this interpellation was primarily addressed to the Minister for Finance and not to the Minister for Financial Markets. Other measures will be required than the measures that the Minister reports in his interpellation answer today.

Then the question remains, although possibly leading and somewhat rhetorical: What is the government doing about the increased poverty and the increased inequalities?

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)

Madam Speaker! I have the strongest and deepest conviction that Niklas Karlsson and his party comrades' commitment to this issue is genuine. If one has met people who are stuck in this type of problematic situation, one cannot leave such meetings uncommitted.

It is about young people who have been swept up in a consumption that they cannot afford. They have been exposed to different types of marketing of loans and quick credits, possibly in a context where proper credit checks have not been required. It can be about parents of small children, men and women who have gone through divorces and ended up in deep life problems and found it difficult to pay their way. Not infrequently, it can be about people with underlying psychiatric problems, for example bipolar disorder. One finds oneself in a manic episode and takes out loans and incurs debts that one actually cannot pay.

Fundamentally, all of this does not have a single answer, but there is one important thing to say: We in Sweden must safeguard a culture where one must not grant loans to people who cannot repay them. Otherwise, it is to do them a disservice, to use a classic expression. It may provide some relief here and now, but it will become long-term problems. Then, it must of course be balanced against the possibility of taking short and quick credits. They also fulfill a function to help groups in society who may have difficulty paying for a larger and more expensive item here and now. It is different interests that need to be weighed against each other.

I am pleased that Niklas Karlsson appreciates the government's work in this area. I do not think that is a generous interpretation of what the member says, however. I also present a long list of assignments and political policy work to address this problem. We simply should not have it in Sweden that one can borrow money if one fundamentally lacks the ability to pay it back. It creates major problems.

To handle those types of situations, we shall have other safety nets in Sweden, and ultimately a subsistence support and other types of help and support.

If one does not want people to end up in financial problems - yes, it is clear that there is no simple solution to this - one can focus on what Niklas Karlsson points out, namely that people who go to work and have an income or a pension should not have to end up in a situation where they cannot cover their daily costs.

It is also important with information work and knowledge accumulation among these groups, so that they are able to make good economic decisions. But fundamentally, just as the member points out, it is about having an income that it is possible to live on.

It is clear that people who go to work in Sweden should have it well and that those who have worked a whole life in Sweden should have it well. Therefore, we are implementing tax cuts aimed at pensions and at low and medium incomes to help these groups meet the tough social development we have had with large price increases. For example, we are extending the reinforcement in the housing allowance for those who need it the most. We are adding record amounts to the budget for municipalities and regions so that they can maintain high quality in welfare services despite the tough situation.

All these measures were needed, obviously without reducing the incentives for people to work. That is important.

I think the Social Democrats have a homework assignment to do. There are usually some discussions about whether they have ever done anything historically wrong or not. But to maintain a work line and ensure that those who work get paid for it and that those who have gone to work benefit from it is still the basis for us to have a cohesive society.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Niklas Karlsson (S)

Madam Speaker! It can seem a bit strange in an industry like ours, which is fundamentally based on political conflict - not in the sense that one should fight, but that one must clash opinions against each other - that we stand here today and are in such agreement.

On the other hand, one can say that when there is a broad consensus – it is this that the Minister is calling for in this debate and in previous answers to interpellations – there is also the possibility of achieving something in the short term and with effective measures. I think that is good.

I truly share the view that we should safeguard a culture that limits the possibility of borrowing. It is important that one is credit checked, that one is creditworthy, and that one does not, in a moment of impulse, take out quick loans to achieve immediate need satisfaction or whatever it may be. That balance is naturally important, and it must be found. It is obviously skewed today given the over-indebtedness we are now seeing and how it is increasing, especially among young people.

The measures that the government is taking are good. I think one should give the government that recognition. They are measures that are necessary, and they would also have been taken under a Social Democratic government. I mean, however, that it is not enough. That is also why this interpellation is posed to the Minister for Finance. Now, of course, it is no excuse for the Minister, as the government makes collective decisions, but it would have been appropriate if the Minister for Finance had been here.

The responsibility that Minister Wykman has and the measures that are now being presented are good, but they are far from sufficient.

Much more must be done. It concerns the labor market, but it is also about ensuring that economic inequalities are reduced. It is about protecting the households that are now taking the big hit in the economic crisis. It is about helping ordinary wage earners so that they have food on the table, can pay their rent, and perhaps not just the absolute necessities but sometimes also the little extra, that which makes life good to live.

Then the measures that lie beyond the Minister's portfolio, area of responsibility, are completely inadequate and in some cases directly counterproductive. The labor market policy is stripped bare - it hardly exists. To pursue a labor line that only concerns tax cuts is not the right way to go. It is rather about that we must have a labor market where one can afford to live on one's salary. One should not have to have two or three jobs to get the income that one needs to be able to live a reasonable life.

We need a different economic policy, one that does not aim to inflation-protect the incomes of high-income earners. We need a better distribution policy. We must, despite an inflation economy, see the opportunities we have. The fight against inflation should not primarily be borne by those with slightly lower or normal incomes, but rather this is something we must do together.

The government is doing nothing about this.

The Minister could make it easy for himself and say: You have to ask the Minister for Finance about that. My answer would then be: That is exactly what I want, but the Minister for Finance does not bother to come to the chamber.

Now, however, I believe that the Minister's sense of responsibility is somewhat greater – I am thinking of the government's decision-making and collective responsibility. So I look forward to hearing what the Minister thinks as well when it comes to the Finance Minister's area of responsibility.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)

Madam Speaker! I am pleased that Niklas Karlsson looks forward to what I have to say. I believe he can learn quite a lot if he listens carefully.

The reason is that people need a job to go to. In the times we are currently in, there are clear upward risks for unemployment. That needs to be met, but it cannot be met in the traditional social democratic way by placing large groups outside of the workforce.

We are aware of the Social Democratic experience with massive early retirements. It can be read in old articles how Göran Persson did it and how one got Försäkringskassan to work on placing large groups outside the workforce. The one who has disqualified a human being from participating in the work community has done something immense against that person's well-being and against society's opportunities to continue to develop.

A work line is required in Swedish politics. A voice is needed for the people who set the clock in the morning, go to work, work hard, fall asleep tired, and then do the same thing the next day. A voice is required in Swedish politics for the people who have done this throughout their entire lives – worked and struggled – and who are now pensioners.

There is deep sympathy from this government's side here, but there is also a deep insight that this is needed for Sweden and society to function.

When Niklas Karlsson speaks dismissively and condescendingly about tax cuts for people who go to work and people who have gone to work, I want to and do strongly oppose that. It should always pay to work.

Then we build strong, robust and reliable protection systems for those people who, for various reasons, cannot work, but the main entry point must always be that those who have the ability to do so shall do so. Regardless of whether one has temporarily lost the ability to work through illness or if one does not have the knowledge required on the Swedish labor market because one has immigrated here, one can never abandon the idea that one should actually support oneself, do good for other people and also contribute with tax revenues. The work line is missing throughout in what Niklas Karlsson talks about.

Contribution systems and transfer systems are necessary and good for a secure society, but that is not how you build society. It must be built on people's work.

It is my opinion that we are generally moving from a policy that passively observes societal problems to a government that now actively tackles societal problems, whether it concerns migration, crime, or over-indebtedness. This would have happened also under a Social Democratic government, says Niklas Karlsson. One can then ask oneself why it did not do so. It is now that this is happening – I am thinking of all the assignments and measures against over-indebtedness.

There has been a development that I wonder if the Social Democrats did not see or did not want to address while in government. In the past, one was perhaps offered a credit to a greater extent when one was going to buy a car and, of course, when one was going to buy a home or perhaps make a larger furniture purchase. Now, one is met with credit offers all the time.

The previous government did some good things here. For example, one should not have this as a first choice. But somewhere we must begin to reflect on this credit society. It is a consumption society where, at any given time, one can always purchase on credit. Does this do something more to us as human beings and to us as a society? What measures, in such a case, need to be taken?

Previously, there was the offer of credit, but perhaps via a complicated contact with the bank, for larger purchases for the home or even when purchasing an entire home. Now they are there all the time. We have not thought enough about this in Sweden. The previous government did not do enough about this. I am glad that Niklas Karlsson is now also involved in these issues. We are working hard on this.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Niklas Karlsson (S)

Madam Speaker! I think the Minister's final part of his speech lands quite well, but the introduction is deplorable.

It is possible that the Minister believes I am here to learn. I learn something new every day, all the time, and I enjoy it. But what distinguishes the Minister and me – what makes the Minister moderate and what makes me represent the Social Democrats – is not fundamentally that we can do different things. We represent different interests because we have different views on what conditions we should provide for ordinary people so that they can have a good and meaningful life.

Of course, we shall strive for people to have a job to go to, but such a work line cannot be designed with a policy where people are to be made poorer in order to be forced to take jobs. We shall facilitate for people to support themselves and to take a job, but they shall also have a wage that it is possible to live on. We shall uphold the minimum wages through collective agreements on the labor market. We shall strive for a good working environment.

When the Minister says that I do not show any deeper sympathy for ordinary working people, I think it is a direct attack on social democracy, and an unworthy one at that. In reality, we see a bourgeois government with moderate representatives who say they protect ordinary workers by protecting them against inflation with the very highest incomes.

So these are the political dividing lines in our country. We represent different interests. The Social Democrats represent broad groups of wage earners, but the bourgeois government - with the Moderates at the forefront - would rather protect those with the large assets and the large incomes.

I look forward to this debate. We can return to it.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)

Madam Speaker! There is currently a broad debate in society regarding the Social Democrats' way of relating to the truth. I do not intend to fully engage in that here and now.

I note that inflation is the worst enemy of wage earners and pensioners. Here, the government has acted resolutely and responsibly. We also see results. It is paramount that inflation comes down.

When it comes to the issue at hand, it may be worth highlighting that we in Sweden have very extensive possibilities to collect debts via the Enforcement Authority (Kronofogden). There are very great possibilities for those who consider themselves entitled to money to receive help from a state agency to obtain them.

We have a right to deductions when it comes to interest expenses for consumption. One gets, so to speak, a kind of subsidy when one borrows and takes out credits also for consumption. We have a simpler form of authorization when it comes to granting such consumer credits. We do not fully impose all the requirements that are placed on banks in order for one to be able to grant this type of credit. Some other types of measures have also been taken, for example mortgage caps, which according to the Financial Supervisory Authority have caused so-called unsecured loans to increase.

I am not saying that any single one of these measures is wrong. But given the societal development we have, where one is offered more and more credits and credit opportunities even for smaller purchases, it is probably time to give some serious thought to what this has for effects in total. I therefore think it is fundamentally good that the Social Democrats and Niklas Karlsson raise this question. It is worth discussing much more in the future.

Then one can observe that the Social Democrats have their own and unique party experience when it comes to this. Now, the government has, for example, proposed a ban on selling lottery tickets on credit. I believe the motion time expires today; I am not entirely sure. We will have to see where the Social Democrats take a stand there.

I read that DN had conducted a review of this. Over time, there were 8,000 cases that had gone to the Enforcement Authority from the Social Democrats' lotteries. That is not how one should work towards people in economic vulnerability.

The interpellations debate was hereby concluded.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)