Response to interpellation 2023/24:32 on development in work at Samhall

Arbetsmarknads- och integrationsministern Johan Pehrson (L)

Madam Speaker! Jim Svensk Larm has asked me, partly, whether I intend to act to ensure that Samhall offers better development in the work for its employees, and partly whether I intend, within my area of responsibility, to work to ensure that the importance of development in the work is clarified in the ownership instructions to Samhall.

I welcome the Swedish National Audit Office's review of Samhall, which Jim Svensk Larm refers to. Employment at Samhall fulfills a very important function in the labor market for persons with disabilities who are not judged to be able to obtain other work and whose needs cannot be met through other interventions.

It remains central that Samhall fulfills its important social mission. This means, among other things, that the work that Samhall offers must be both meaningful and developing for the individual.

The Government will return to the Riksdag in the usual manner regarding the continued handling of the National Audit Office's report. I can, however, already say that the Government intends to conduct a thorough review of Samhälls' mandate, activities, and conditions.

It has been 30 years since Samhall was reorganized into a limited company. During that time, there have been significant changes in both the company's operations and conditions as well as the target group's needs. I foresee that any needs for clarifications in the ownership instructions or other governance will be a matter for the review.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Jim Svensk Larm (S)

Madam Speaker! I thank the Minister for the answer and the opportunity to debate and discuss Samhällets important activities.

My questions are based on the report that the Swedish National Audit Office submitted before the summer, and even though several things raised in the report have been pointed out previously, the review constitutes an important part for continuing to develop Samhall.

Everyone who can work shall work. The support needed to enter employment varies depending on the individual. Therefore, it is important that the state has a range of measures to find the right measure for the right person. One of the measures is referral to Samhall, which Arbetsförmedlingen can do.

The organization's mission is to promote employment and development for persons with disabilities. The company also has an important role in promoting social inclusion and diversity in the labor market and in society at large.

I have had the opportunity to visit Samhall on a few occasions over the past year. Regardless of whether it has been a visit to the local store, at Arlanda, or in Samhall's own production premises, I have always been met by professional employees who are proud to be part of the community building in Sweden. Samhall's operations are good in large parts, but as in all operations, there are things that can be developed.

The Riksrevisionen's report revealed, among other things, criticism that Samhall has allowed the business perspective to weigh too heavily at the expense of the human perspective. This has resulted in the working environment for the staff suffering and that individuals have performed various work tasks that, for various reasons, were not suitable for them. For many companies, business viability is a central aspect, but when it comes to Samhall, it is clear that a better balance is needed and that greater focus should be placed on creating meaningful and developing work for the employees.

When it comes to the working environment for employees at Samhall, work has been initiated. It is extremely important that all workplaces have a good working environment. This is something that was debated last week with Minister Brandberg, and it applies in particular to the employees at Samhall.

Madam Speaker! The Minister for Employment does not give many answers to my questions. What we are told is that the government intends to conduct a thorough review of Samhälls mandate, activities, and conditions. But when is the review expected to be carried out? What will be the starting point for the investigation? Will the Minister for Employment do anything before this review is complete, or will the ownership directive remain unchanged until then?

In the next debate, we will discuss some reallocations within the appropriation from which the money for Samhall comes. I think we will have that discussion then. But it can't be the only thing the Minister for Employment intends to do regarding Samhall? It hasn't exactly been a very busy year for the Minister for Employment, with one proposal last year and no proposal this autumn. But the Minister for Employment can perhaps answer when the review is expected to be carried out, what starting point the investigations will have, and if anything will occur before the review is complete.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Jonathan Svensson (S)

Madam Speaker! I would like to begin by thanking MP Jim Svensk Larm for raising such an important and pressing issue as exactly how Samhall can provide opportunities for developing work for its employees.

Samhall has, as many know, a very important social mission in providing many of our citizens who have a disability resulting in reduced work capacity with meaningful and developing work, which may then lead to employment on the regular labor market.

The Chairman mentioned in his speech the report from the Swedish National Audit Office which forms the basis for this interpellation debate. As previously mentioned, the report pointed to a number of areas where the Swedish National Audit Office assesses that Samhall does not fully fulfill its entire social mandate. Deficiencies are pointed out in several areas, such as in the work of providing developing jobs and in governance and organization.

One of the areas that the Swedish National Audit Office points out deficiencies in is the sparse staffing at the management level, particularly among first-line managers. This is an issue that I would like to highlight a bit extra.

In a survey conducted by the Swedish National Audit Office among the managers within the company, approximately 70 percent of all managers state that they have 30 subordinate employees or more, and 25 percent state that they have 40 employees or more. There are also examples of managers with 70 to 80 subordinate employees.

The survey results also clearly indicate that far too many managers consider that they do not have enough time to truly be able to work with their employees - they do not have time for development, support, or feedback. The National Audit Office also explains that Samhällens managers not only have many subordinates but also have employees who work at many different locations at different times, which naturally complicates the work.

The National Audit Office points out that research indicates there are risks with such large management areas. Among other things, it mentions poor working environment, stress, and high staff turnover. The National Audit Office writes that when the recruitment of managers is posted on Arbetsförmedlingen, the focus is on industry knowledge and business thinking, not on experience of working with people with disabilities.

To compensate for these large groups of personnel per manager, Samhall has created a form of intermediate management with operations and team leaders, the National Audit Office states. The idea is that these team leaders shall be responsible for planning, management, and follow-up of daily operations. It can, however, be stated that they often take on a responsibility that is greater than what they are actually employed for.

The problems that the Swedish National Audit Office describes regarding too large staff groups per manager are problematic. Samhälls' social mission is to create meaningful and developing jobs for persons with disabilities. Persons with disabilities are a group who, within the framework of their employment, may be thought to be in need of extra support compared to other people on the labor market. This is support that usually should come from the immediate manager. When the Swedish National Audit Office points out that a manager can have as many as 70 to 80 subordinate employees, it is probably easy to make the assumption that it will be difficult for the manager to work closely and actively with their employees.

In light of the National Audit Office's report, I would like to ask the Minister how he and the government intend to handle the deficiencies that appear in the report, both generally and specifically directed at the management.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Arbetsmarknads- och integrationsministern Johan Pehrson (L)

Madam Speaker! I want to extend a big thank you to Jim Svensk Larm and Jonathan Svensson for the commitment in Samhall, this limited company that the previous government thought it was so important to retain. It was to be a limited company, and it was to be run as a company with the regulatory framework that applies to these, however with a state owner.

There are great advantages to the state being an owner and taking the enormous social responsibility that it entails to give many people a meaningful everyday life and the ability to support themselves. It means a lot for those individuals. It also means a lot for their children, for their parents, and for the family otherwise that we have the strong social imprint on Samhall.

But it is also correct, as both Jonathan Svensson and Jim Svensk Larm pointed out, that it has not always functioned painlessly. It is a very difficult balancing act, like walking on a tightrope, between taking social considerations and simultaneously acting on some kind of market. With the substantial billion-kronor subsidies that we use the citizens' tax money for to make Samhall exist, it is a matter of them having an activity that is very close to the rest of the labor market and that approximately the same conditions apply, so that the individuals one day eventually – if it is possible – can take the step over from Samhall to a regular employment on the labor market. That balancing act has been difficult for many years.

I am a little afraid that I must disappoint you, because I cannot tell you exactly how this is going to proceed right now. We have received the National Audit Office's report, and it is central. It lists a number of challenges. Then we will come back with an answer to the Riksdag. I would be anticipating the constitution and the regulatory framework we have in the Swedish constitution if I were to tell you now what it will say in it. The government is to do this in a written statement. Then the members, not least in the committee work, will be able to handle this and present their positions regarding how they view the report and place it on the government. This is what lies ahead of us.

We are also working on the ownership directives, and I cannot tell you what will be in them just now. But it is not a wild guess, Madam Speaker, that a good deal of what is addressed in the National Audit Office's report will be taken up in the ownership directives for that activity which is so important. Samhall naturally also operates in another, larger context where its services and its production are dependent on the Swedish economy as a whole. And our country is facing quite difficult challenges, as is known, regarding the fact that it is becoming increasingly difficult for exports and that we have a krona that is sinking in value and which imports inflation.

There are many things that have an impact. But we know one thing, and that is that Samhall's future, just like most things in Sweden, is very well served by us conducting a responsible economic policy that squeezes inflation out of the Swedish economy. It will benefit Samhall and all of their hardworking employees.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Jim Svensk Larm (S)

Madam Speaker! I would like to take the opportunity to thank Jonathan Svensson, who is participating in the debate and highlighting an important part of the review. A good working environment and governance are facilitated if there is a present leadership. It is extremely important.

As I said in my previous post, the staff at Samhall also deserve a good working environment, a working environment where the work tasks are adapted based on the specific needs of the staff and which also enables development.

To streamline the support and inclusion of persons with disabilities in the labor market, it is necessary that an improvement in the exchange of information between Arbetsförmedlingen and Samhall takes place. This is something pointed out in the Swedish National Audit Office's report. One criticism that emerges is that Samhall does not receive a comprehensive picture of the individual's circumstances in the instructions from Arbetsförmedlingen. This can, in turn, lead to double work as Samhall needs to conduct its own investigation regarding what needs a certain person has. At the same time, there is a risk that the work environment will suffer for the person who comes to work.

In the same way, there is criticism that Samhall does not inform Arbetsförmedlingen to a sufficient extent regarding which work tasks are available - which work tasks and services there are to perform at Samhall. Therefore, it is important that this exchange of information is improved in some way to benefit both the individual and the efficiency of the support processes. It is an important cooperation that needs to function well between these organizations, so that there is an efficient exchange of information so that persons with disabilities can reach their goal of meaningful work.

Madam Speaker! Samhall is an important labor market policy initiative. But the audit from the Swedish National Audit Office shows that it is not so clearly visible in the management. Too much focus has been placed on the financial management, which I also touched upon in my previous contribution.

In an interpellation debate on January 24, Johan Pehrson said that he would have a meeting with Samhall to see what help and support they needed. It is important to have ongoing dialogues with both authorities and state-owned companies to find out what changes are needed from their perspective.

I wonder what the Minister for Employment took away from this meeting with Samhall. Was there anything special other than that Samhall considered that the level of the additional cost compensation needs to be raised? Samhall is to be an important initiative aimed at those who do not receive help from other initiatives. Therefore, it is important that Samhall offers tasks that have a breadth so that it is possible to offer the right task to the right person.

But even here, the Swedish National Audit Office argues that Samhall does not offer a sufficiently broad portfolio of different work tasks. A large part takes place within local care, which does not suit all employees. At the same time, 71 percent of Samhall's managers assess that the individuals assigned there have too low a work capacity in relation to what work at Samhall requires. This is a major problem.

How does the Minister for Employment intend to act before the major review takes place? The Minister mentioned a little bit about the ownership instructions. He gave a hint that something might come. But how does one intend to act to improve the exchange of information between Arbetsförmedlingen and Samhall, but also the breadth of Samhall's various services so that there is something that fits for each individual who is to receive their work at Samhall?

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Jonathan Svensson (S)

Madam Speaker! We naturally look forward to the government's communication in connection with the National Audit Office's report. It is good that the government is presenting a document to the Committee on the Labour Market. It is needed.

The Swedish National Audit Office clearly points out what problems exist with the large staff groups per manager. I would like to build on that description of the problem a little bit.

In my normal professional life, I work at a state agency that in some cases works relatively close to Samhall when it comes to their employees. I have myself examples of when I have had to get in contact with an employee's immediate supervisor. When I have then called the immediate supervisor and had questions about his employee, it sometimes appears quite clearly that the supervisor is first a bit unsure about who I am talking about. I can honestly say that in the conversation it took a little while before the supervisor understood who I was talking about. Even after the conversation, it was clearly evident that the supervisor lacked deeper knowledge about his employee.

Madam Speaker! This is problematic. Samhall has a very important mission as a state-owned company to provide meaningful and developing work for its employees. It is therefore of importance that the government ensures that the company manages its mission in a satisfactory manner.

In view of this, I would like, like Member Jim Svensk Larm, to again ask the Minister how he and the government intend to handle the deficiencies that appear in the report before the review is conducted.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Arbetsmarknads- och integrationsministern Johan Pehrson (L)

Madam Speaker! I thank Jonathan Svensson for this strong testimony from professional life outside the mandate as a Member of Parliament.

This is difficult. As I said, it is a balancing act to manage to deliver as a limited company. It is something I have inherited from previous governments, namely that it is important that this very socio-politically characterized intervention for the labor market is driven in the form of a limited company. I perceive that it is an opinion that the members here from the Socialdemokraterna still share, i.e., that this is good and sufficient. It is, in fact, also a discussion that is held when a total review is conducted: Is this how it should be? Is this the best way? It has not always looked like that. But I understand that it is how it looks.

I also understand the feeling that as a Member of Parliament, one wants to have a strong influence, beyond enacting laws, establishing the state budget, and exercising the power of oversight over the government which is so important and which is exercised exactly now as I stand here and you sit there. It is important. But it is equally important that other parts of our constitution are upheld, that is to say that petitions are answered in due order.

The company, in this case Samhall, is governed in such a way that an ownership directive is issued. This does not prevent ongoing contacts from the units that have responsibility—such as state-owned companies at the Ministry of Finance but also with me at the Ministry of Employment—regarding much of the content of Samhall and what is obtained from it, occurring within the Government Offices, which consists of thousands of people of whom very few are politically appointed regardless of which government rules this country. These contacts occur continuously.

I can then confirm that the question raised regarding the exchange of information to avoid double work or that someone falls between the cracks, so to speak, is highly present. And I envision a conceivable situation where this will again be addressed in the documents that govern the authorities. In connection with the budget being established, a regulation letter is also made, in addition to the instruction that governs, if we are talking about Arbetsförmedlingen.

I have been to many Samhall units and met its management over the years, and I have been to employment offices all around our beautiful country. But no one has said that they want deficient information and a deficient exchange between Samhall and Arbetsförmedlingen. Everyone wants this to be good. I am therefore glad that Jim Svensk Larm and Jonathan Svensson also hold this view and that we shall push forward on this issue. I hope that we can do this side by side.

Every visit you make is important, because you then receive information and they receive signals that you consider this to be important. I will ensure that I, through the governance I exercise in the form of, for example, regulatory letters and ownership directives, push from this side. But that is how Sweden is governed.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Jim Svensk Larm (S)

Madam Speaker! Thank you for the answer, Minister! It is somewhat pleasing that the Minister wants to guess a little about what is coming ahead and does not just refer to the fact that a letter will be issued. I appreciate that we get some kind of insight into what might be expected.

I also want to take the opportunity to thank the Minister for Employment for the debate. Samhall is, just as the Minister says, an incredibly important company that has a major role in providing more support in work. The criticism that we have discussed here today and which appears in the Swedish National Audit Office's report shows, however, that it can be even better. This is something we need to review: Which path do we take forward to improve Samhall and give more people the opportunity to get to Samhall, get meaningful work at Samhall, and also move forward from Samhall in transitions to the regular labor market? This is, in fact, also an important part of Samhall's mission.

I look forward to the government's referral this autumn and to seeing how the review that the Minister for Employment talks about will actually land. We will see if the things we have discussed here today are matters that will come up in that review and also in the ownership instructions going forward. I want, however, to again emphasize the importance of us not just leaning back and waiting for the review, but that there is an ongoing dialogue and development together with Arbetsförmedlingen and Samhall to see how we can develop the exchange of information and together with the Ministry of Finance develop the governance of Samhall. I believe that this is incredibly important to do.

I also want to take the opportunity to urge the Minister for Employment to make many visits out to Samhall, even though he said he had been to many places. It is through such visits that we get an insight into how many think it is. Many are proud and happy employees, and it gives a lot of energy to go out and understand how important this activity is.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Arbetsmarknads- och integrationsministern Johan Pehrson (L)

Madam Speaker! I thank you for this interpellation debate, where we are quite in agreement on the direction and the goals, if perhaps not on the outcome. I just want to say that I see how difficult it is. Here, Social Democrats have fought for eight years to solve the challenges that are now presented in the National Audit Office's report, but it is difficult. I will continue to do my best to rectify these shortcomings.

Nothing is as important or as worthy of pride as the efforts made through Samhall to create meaning in existence for the individual and to give this person a chance to feel that they are part of a larger community. It has an enormous effect for children, parents, and everyone else in a family to see that this woman or man goes to a job during the day and what this does to break, not least, loneliness. We also know what positive health effects it has to be part of a context. Here we have a great responsibility.

It is also for that reason that the government, I want to say this in conclusion of the debate, is allocating substantial resources to Samhall. Samhall has, in recent years, tended to always be right on the edge of being able to make ends meet. But again: Alongside this, we must do what we can to get momentum back into the Swedish economy and fight inflation. This also affects the situation for Samhall and all other companies that do not have the enormously strong state support that Samhall has.

The interpellations debate was hereby concluded.

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