Response to interpellation 2023/24:487 on the defense of the Stockholm region

Försvarsministern Pål Jonson (M)

Madam Speaker! I have been asked what future challenges for the defense of Stockholm and the Stockholm region I see and what measures I intend to take in the area.

The capital and the Stockholm region are of central strategic importance but are also part of a larger military-geographical whole. The Middle Military Region is one of several militarily and strategically important areas in Sweden.

The Armed Forces conduct continuous defense planning together with the most important actors within civil defense. It covers various scenarios, ultimately in order to be able to meet an armed attack.

The upgrading of the Swedish defense means that the Armed Forces' capabilities to operate across Sweden's territory are increased. Even the current defense decision implies a reinforcement of the units in central Sweden, which entails expanded possibilities for the Armed Forces to operate in the capital region.

The majority of units in the Armed Forces' war organization have operational mobility and can, if necessary, be concentrated in one or more areas. In the Stockholm area, there are a number of military units from the Armed Forces' basic organization, from all branches of the defense forces and from the Home Guard. From these basic organization units, war units are organized whose task is to defend Sweden against an armed attack.

In the autumn of 2024, the government plans to submit a bill to the Riksdag regarding the continued development of the total defense. The discussion on the defense's development needs to be conducted based on the need to be able to defend Sweden against an armed attack and our membership in Nato. The defense of Sweden will in the future take place within the framework of the allies' collective defense, which increases Sweden's security. Sweden's war organization and total defense constitute our most important contribution to Nato and simultaneously to the defense of Sweden.

The armed attack is dimensioning for all total defense planning being conducted, which includes both preparedness authorities as well as the preparedness planning of regions and municipalities. All regions and municipalities have a responsibility to ensure that their own operations function even during crisis and war. It is very important that the preparedness planning continues among all actors within the total defense.

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Markus Selin (S)

Madam Speaker! Thanks to the Minister for Defence for a substantial and good answer!

During the night of March 29, 2013, two bombers flanked by four fighter jets flew from the Gulf of Finland towards our capital, Stockholm. The fighter jets were, of course, to protect the precious cargo. These Russian machines of murder held a straight course towards our capital.

Since I am trained in engineering, I have calculated what the effect of an attack with conventional weapons would be. If these aircraft had dropped conventional bombs over Stockholm, a large part of where we are now would be completely gone.

It is tragic and nightmare-like that it has turned out that it was probably not conventional bombs that Russia and Vladimir Putin's regime decided to practice with against our heart. According to the vast majority, it was an exercise in preparation for dropping nuclear weapons over our capital. It was another time, and many of us were negatively surprised by this. Since then, not much has been the same in the relationship with Russia.

I raise this today to highlight many things. I think the Minister for Defence also points out some important things, for example that our capital Stockholm is of great strategic importance.

Stockholm is not only home for me and my children but for 2.5 million inhabitants. The residents of the Stockholm region thus constitute a quarter of Sweden's population. If we include the rest of the Mälaren region, where Stockholm is the hub, half of the country's population is contained here. Here is Sweden's cultural center, the media, the state administration, and a large part of not only Sweden's business sector and headquarters. It is perhaps one of Europe's most headquarters-dense regions and cities. Here we have ports and airports. There are plenty of strategic targets, if I may put it that way. But at the same time, we have a challenge, for Stockholm is not only beautiful but also full of water. Water is both a defense and an obstacle.

Russia's attempt to invade Kyiv has also highlighted the importance of capital cities. Thankfully, the Russian tank column got stuck, and the attempt to seize the Hostomel airport also failed.

What I am looking for in my questions to the Minister for Defence is whether there is anything else, based on the era I have outlined here, that we need to develop in the future in the defense of our capital and of the Stockholm region.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Försvarsministern Pål Jonson (M)

Madam Speaker! Thank you, Markus Selin, for the interpellation!

Yesterday's announcement that we are now fully allied with Nato has a strong deterrent effect against any type of temptation toward aggression. It is known that if one attacks Sweden, one also attacks the other 31 allies. It will create better conditions for us to live in peace and avoid such provocations as Markus Selin told about linked to the Russian military actions that we have seen over time. It has been aggressive in our own immediate vicinity.

Let me say a few words connected to the Stockholm area. I think Markus Selin reasons wisely regarding the strategic importance. Here, of course, is the central state leadership, the Riksdag, the departments, many agencies and companies that conduct society-important activities. There is a large population concentration in the entire Mälardalen.

If one examines these questions properly, they are likely about population protection, civil defense, and the ability to transport a large number of people in the event of high alert and war. It is complex.

We are also taking a number of measures to strengthen civil defense, not least when it comes to population protection, but also to practice withdrawals linked to transport and communication, which is very important for a strengthened civil defense.

We have also partially reactivated the civil obligation, which I understand there is a broad consensus on. It is primarily focused on emergency services. It is important. One of the experiences from the war in Ukraine is that emergency services are put to very great tests during an armed attack.

Another experience linked to the war in Ukraine is how important different types of air defense systems are. We see that Russia has developed its ability to conduct long-range warfare. We see that they do this both from the air and from sea-based platforms. There are a number of different types of robots and missiles that are used.

It points out how important the air defense dimension is. Markus Selin also knows that we are working on further developing the Patriot air defense system which was procured during the previous government's time. We also have IRIS-T. The protection of population centers in the capital is such a place where more air defense may need to be allocated.

At the same time, one has to ask the same question that the Ukrainians do. Should it be used for population protection, should it be used to protect military capability, or can it be used to protect civil infrastructure? These are difficult trade-offs that the Ukrainians must make.

I was in Ukraine last week and held talks. It is absolutely crucial that they continue to receive access to more air defense systems. This is to prevent Russia from being successful with its long-range robots and missiles, but also to ensure that Russia does not gain air superiority.

Air defense is a component that is very important for different types of population centers and not least for the Stockholm area.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Markus Selin (S)

Madam Speaker! I thank the Minister for Defence for the contribution!

The Minister of Defence said a word that was somewhat liberating for me. It is precisely air defence. The Cold War taught us much of what the Minister of Defence explains. It is about shelters, rescue services and also remote engagement.

We have written it in the current defense decision from 2020. It is clarified that the long-range capability shall be developed. It is something that I, as a Social Democrat, stand up for and push hard for. We need to develop our air defense even more than we do today. That is what the vast majority signed on to in the previous defense decision.

I return to the current situation, to emphasize the need for air defense and long-range capability to combat enemies and antagonists.

Madam Speaker! When the Minister for Defence and I stand here and speak, it is closer to Russian Kaliningrad with all the unpleasant things that can be found there than from here to Malmö. What I am looking for, Madam Speaker, is of course that the need for long-range pre-engagement, as it is called in technical terms, is extremely important.

We must continue to build up that competence. It applies from the small to the large. The small in this case could be the new element in warfare such as drones. The large would be, just as the Minister for Defence highlights, the Patriot system. Here we are now. There is more to be done in the air defense area.

Speaking of what we Social Democrats want, besides developing the air defense, it may also be appropriate to highlight another issue that we are currently pushing for. We would like to see that the combat school in Kvarn also becomes a regiment. That may sound a bit misplaced. But for those of us who have been on site and looked at it, it is an excellent, state-of-the-art facility for practicing combat in built-up areas.

Urban warfare—we all hope that we will not have to see it around the Riksdag building and in the Stockholm region. But there is, of course, a strong connection to us having well-trained soldiers for urban warfare if the shit hits the fan, so to speak.

I know, believe, and hope that the excellent facility in Kvarn remains regardless of whether it has the title regiment or just as it is now as a defense training facility.

I will take a small look back. We have Livgardet here in the Stockholm area, the Amphibious Regiment, and the Home Guard. We are close to the Strängnäs Armoured Regiment. We have the Air Force in Uppsala.

But we have also had an anti-aircraft regiment in the Stockholm region, in Norrtälje, and engineer troops. They can be very important to have, for example, to build up bridges that have been destroyed or to hinder attacks against the metropolitan area and our common capital Stockholm.

I would very much like to have some reflection from the Minister for Defence on restorative or forward-looking measures for the defense of Stockholm.

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Försvarsministern Pål Jonson (M)

Madam Speaker! I interpret it as that Markus Selin and I agree regarding the importance of air defense for population centers. It is good that several measures have been taken regarding Patriot and IRIS-T.

I can also say that the Riksdag during the previous parliamentary term announced to the government the importance of expediting the work to develop a long-range capability. It is also a way to be able to deter from becoming a target for long-range strikes, and it is thereby deterrence.

I can state that other countries in our own immediate vicinity have invested heavily in long-range capability, as Markus Selin knows. Finland has a system called JASSM. In Germany, they have a system called Taurus, and even in Poland, they have long-range capability.

It is a part of modern warfare. Sweden also needs to develop the capability and the doctrine development that comes with such a capability. I can imagine that there is also an expectation among the other allies within Nato that we can also contribute to that capability. Norway also has it.

Let me say something connected to the new organizational units. It concerns an organizational unit that is located outside the Stockholm area and is somewhat outside the scope of the interpellation.

I have appointed a defense commission. I want to find a broad agreement on defense, the basic organization, and defense economics. I will not anticipate it by pointing out individual military capabilities or organizational units because it risks creating a deadlock.

I will neither dismiss nor attribute it as Markus Selin suggests. Markus Selin knows that the Armed Forces are very clear in its basis in ÖB's military council: no more new organizational units.

It is considered that Sweden is not defended by regiments but by war units. There is a concern when new basic organizations are established because it then ties up very many staff officers to those regiments.

Again: I will not anticipate the defense preparedness that I myself have commissioned. It must be allowed to work in peace and quiet. We, on the government's side, will always strive for a broad agreement on security and defense policy.

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Markus Selin (S)

Madam Speaker! Thank you, Minister for Defence, for the answers!

I agree with the Minister of Defence. It sounds like we have a great consensus here. But I still want to emphasize the direction. Our history has taught us that it is easy to be wise in hindsight.

Stockholm and the Stockholm region are full of historical monuments. They have mostly been completed in defense contexts as technology has advanced. This applies to everything from the various trench lines here outside to defend us against an armed attack during the First World War, to the various anti-aircraft batteries and fortifications of the Second World War and the Cold War, which have constantly been moved out in line with technological developments.

Madam Speaker! I want to use this to remind us of the geographical proximity to Putin's regime in Russia, in Kaliningrad, and the various capricious, unwanted training activities that will probably arise in the future, whether we want it or not.

With these words, I would like to thank the Minister for Defence for the answer.

The speech at riksdagen.se, in Swedish (opens in a new tab)

Försvarsministern Pål Jonson (M)

Madam Speaker! Thank you, Markus Selin, for the interpellation debate! That Sweden constantly keeps up with the rapid military-technical developments is important. We have launched it as a defense and innovation initiative that largely is about being able to take advantage of rapid civilian technology but also being able to quickly reshape it into military capability. We are making specific investments in that. But Sweden will likely not be quantitatively superior to an adversary. Therefore, it is extra important that we have high quality and high technical capability, which we have, not least thanks to the strong Swedish defense industry, which I believe we will continue to discuss shortly.

Let me just say, regarding the protection of the large defense area, and which is actually the change since yesterday, is that we are also covered by Article 5. This means that we will not defend Sweden alone but do so together with other countries. It means that parts of our territory will also be included in NATO's collective defense planning. The advantage of that is that one can have designated units and capabilities, which together with others can work to protect Stockholm but also the rest of Sweden.

The interpellations debate was hereby concluded.

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