Response to interpellation 2023/24:564 on registers of household assets and debts
Translated from Swedish by AI; the translation may contain errors. The Swedish text is the original.
Summary AI, written in advance
M believes that the government should proceed with the proposals in SOU 2022:51 to create a wealth register as there is a knowledge gap regarding Swedes' wealth 1. M criticizes the government for not listening to expert authorities 1 and argues that it is regrettable that the government has not acted on the commission's proposals 1. M believes it is a wise move to begin investigating the debt side to prevent households from taking on debts they cannot repay 2. S wants a major tax reform and higher tax on capital, but is not in favor of property tax or a reintroduced wealth tax 3. S argues that a register is not a first step towards a wealth tax 3.
Written by AI in advance and may contain errors. The numbers lead to the speech a statement builds on; check against the text below.
Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)
Madam Speaker! Mathias Tegnér has asked me what the reasons are that I and the government did not proceed with the proposals in SOU 2022:51 and whether I and the government intend to return to the Riksdag with proposals to enable the collection of data on households' assets.
Until 2007, Statistics Sweden, SCB, produced individual-based statistics on households' assets and debts. The so-called wealth statistics were based on the control data submitted to the Swedish Tax Agency within the framework of the now abolished wealth tax.
In the report A new statistic on household assets and debts (SOU 2022:51), it is proposed that SCB shall again produce individual-based statistics on household assets and debts. The stated purpose of the proposal is to broaden the decision-making basis for various agencies, for example, Finansinspektionen within the framework of macroprudential supervision and Sveriges riksbank within the framework of monetary policy.
The report has been subject to consultation, and several referral bodies - primarily industry organizations in the financial markets area - are critical of the proposal.
New statistics on household assets and debts raise several questions that require careful consideration, for example regarding the protection of personal privacy. A new order also needs to take into account other proposals in the area.
Household debts have increased for a long time, and the government takes the risks associated with this seriously. The government has recently appointed a committee to evaluate how these measures have functioned so far and how they can be designed moving forward to manage macroeconomic risks and consumer protection in a purposeful manner (dir. 2023:53).
In summary, the report A new statistic on household assets and debts is subject to preparation in the Ministry of Finance.
Mathias Tegnér (S)
Madam Speaker! Thank you, Minister, for the answer! Household debt has increased significantly since the 2010s, and the question of household assets and debts has now been re-actualized in the public debate. Several important institutions have demanded that a wealth register be established.
"'Sweden is groping in the dark regarding the size of wealth' is the headline of a debate article from the Fiscal Policy Council on DN Debatt on February 20 this year. In this article, the Fiscal Policy Council joins the Riksbank, Riksgälden, Finansinspektionen and other important institutions and notes that there is "a gaping knowledge gap when it comes to Swedes' wealth." They continue: "Therefore, we must obtain a comprehensive statistic on households' assets and debts."
As the Minister knows, a majority in the Committee on Finance decided in October 2019 to notify the then government that it would appoint an inquiry into this area. This resulted in the inquiry the Minister referred to, A new statistics of households' assets and debts, SOU 2022:51.
The investigation already submitted a number of proposals during 2022 with the possibility of entering into force on 1 January 2024. This has obviously not happened. This is very regrettable, because just as the Fiscal Policy Council states, there is a gaping knowledge gap. But despite the fact that this knowledge gap can create uncertainties that may affect interest rates upwards, the government does not seem to want to act on the issue.
For me, it is very difficult to understand why the government does not listen to its expert authority and other heavyweight institutions in the field, such as the Fiscal Policy Council, the Riksbank, the Swedish National Debt Office, the National Economic Board, and the Financial Supervisory Authority.
Based on the above, my questions to Minister Niklas Wykman are the following: What are the reasons why the Minister and the Government have not proceeded with the proposals in SOU 2022:51? Do the Minister and the Government intend to return to the Riksdag with proposals to enable the collection of data on households' assets and debts?
Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)
Madam Speaker! First and foremost: Sweden shall secure financial stability. We shall secure safe conditions for Swedish households and Swedish consumers. To do this, the government, the Riksdag, and our authorities must have good decision-making bases so that we can make good decisions based on facts and available information. This is a self-evident starting point for me and the government. It is very important for Sweden that it is so, and this government will always act in that direction.
I received a question the other day: Why are the Social Democrats so enthusiastic about a state register for this? They were perfectly fine with control over population registration and other things being lost during the time they sat in government. But just when it comes to this, they want to move very quickly. What do you think that is due to?
That was the question. The answer is that it can, for example, have to do with taxes. When Magdalena Andersson was to become party leader, she released a report containing a number of different proposals for new taxes, many of them which under different names and in different guises have harmed Sweden over the years, for example the wealth tax which led to great pressure outwards on entrepreneurship and a reduction of wages. In the debate and from experts who have commented on this, we have also heard that such a register would be very well-balanced and good for introducing a property tax, for example - is there such a dimension?
This government is very clear that we are not to reintroduce the property tax. We are also not going to build up an infrastructure for the type of wealth tax that has historically harmed Swedish wages, Swedish wage earners, and Swedish entrepreneurship.
With that said, one has to wonder how we can obtain a data basis that is as good as possible. The interpellor may have an answer as to why the Riksbank has, for ten years, refrained from taking part of the data that exists, for example, from the ECB. One can also, of course, consider other methods, for example sampling, to collect sufficient and good information in this area.
A question for which the interpellator is somewhat responsible for the answer is, of course, whether good and sufficient decision-making bases are synonymous with having to know everything about everyone at all times. Is it the same thing? To have a good and sufficient understanding at the policy level, and then we are talking primarily, of course, about blank loans and what is often referred to as liquid buffers and how resilient households are, does one then need to know everything about everyone at all times?
If one wants to introduce a tax, one must of course know it. If one wants a wealth tax and a property tax, one must know everything about everyone always. But must one know everything at an individual level to make other types of decisions?
The interpellator speaks passionately for this investigation, but does the interpellator themselves even once think it is reasonable to collect how far one has driven with one's car every year? It is one of the 114, I believe, variables that one wants to collect in a state super-register of all people.
The interpellor can perhaps also answer how appropriate it is, given the cybersecurity situation we find ourselves in, to build such a super-register with several billion data points across all Swedish households, even if one is tempted by the idea of introducing entrepreneurship tax, wealth tax, and property tax. Is it reasonable to collect billions of data points in a super-register? Is it a balanced measure to achieve the goals? The interpellor owes the Swedish people an answer to that question.
Mathias Tegnér (S)
Madam Speaker! I was about to thank Minister Wykman for the answer. The problem, Madam Speaker, is that Minister Wykman seems to have misunderstood Chapter 8 of the Instrument of Government, the chapter that deals precisely with interpellations and questions to ministers.
An interpellation is an instrument that is part of the Riksdag's oversight responsibility regarding the government. I understand that the Speaker is aware of this, and I am convinced that Niklas Wykman also is. This is, therefore, an instrument that the Riksdag has to ask questions to the government through the ministers. It is not the government's instrument for asking a thousand questions to the Riksdag.
I have noted that it is not the first time that Minister Wykman has played "thousand questions" in the chamber. My colleague, Member of Parliament Eva Lindh, asked a question to the Minister last year linked to the banks' excess profits. If I have counted correctly, Minister Niklas Wykman asked 47 questions to my colleague without answering the questions that were asked. The same thing happened when we debated this issue in an interpellation debate where Ingela Nylund Watz asked similar questions to the Minister.
The Minister has, according to Chapter 8, Section 4, two weeks to respond. This interpellation was submitted on 27 February, and today is 19 March. Three weeks have therefore elapsed. It is not the first time an interpellation has been answered late, but the Minister should, with an extra week of consideration time, be able to answer the question without playing thousand questions.
If the Minister answers just one of the questions I have asked, I promise to try to answer the Minister's questions. Does the Minister and the Government intend to return to the Riksdag with proposals to enable the collection of data on households' assets and debts, according to proposals from Riksbanken, Riksgälden, Finansinspektionen, and Ekonomistyrningsverket?
Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)
Madam Speaker! First and foremost, I assume that the Speaker or another appropriate institution has informed the members of the Riksdag about what the situation regarding the answers to interpellations looks like. Secondly, we have a preparatory process in Sweden for how matters are handled. The end of my answer was: "In summary, the report A new statistics on households' assets and debts is subject to preparation in the Ministry of Finance." It therefore appears clearly that the matter is being prepared in the Ministry of Finance.
When it comes to the question of how we should keep statistics in Sweden and how we should combat over-indebtedness, it is important to know that there are two proposals. The interpellator is certainly aware of this. There is a discussion regarding debts and debt registers being prepared at the Ministry of Justice where referral responses have been submitted. A reasonable thing would be to perhaps get a grip on the debt side and then consider how, based on that, one should proceed with working on the asset side of the economy.
If one is very eager and wants this statistics for something that perhaps has to do with fiscal policy in general, it is clear that one can feel a sense of urgency regarding it. Otherwise, Madam Speaker, it is important that things are done properly and are designed purposefully. The answer to the question is that preparation is ongoing in both of these parts - the debt side and the asset side - in the economy.
When it comes to countering the debt side of the economy, many different types of measures were naturally needed. Information about the debt side was obviously needed, not least regarding unsecured loans. Reforms were also needed to counter increased indebtedness. The Government has presented one such, but many more such issues are being prepared in connection with the over-indebtedness investigation, which has submitted a long series of proposals in the area regarding how one can correctly push back the indebtedness.
Possibly all these counter-questions are an answer to the question I received. Why don't we just do as the researchers want and take in all the information? Why don't we just do as the Finansinspektionen or the Riksbank want? Well, it is because politics has a different mandate.
I am the first to defend all authorities that request statistics and knowledge. I myself have a background in the research world and understand the desire from researchers to know as much as possible about everyone at all times. It is in the nature of the matter for authorities as well. But we—the government and you in this chamber—have to weigh this against other issues, and it was these issues that were posed back. How does one view privacy in relation to this? How does one view the risk of this type of data falling into the wrong hands? How does one view the cost of collecting and preserving all this data in relation to the benefit it provides? How does one view the efficiency of this?
The head of the Riksbank did say that it wouldn't be radically different but that it would affect the margin. Okay, then one has to weigh that against the enormous reporting - 114 variables, I believe the investigation suggested.
If we are to find a way forward to obtain suitable decision-making bases, it is of course best if one is in agreement on a general level. It is then important to define the question that stands against this: Should it really be reported in how far one has driven with their car every year? That is one of the variables that is proposed to be included in this. Is it a reasonable trade-off? Should we have such a state super-register with all that information about all households? Is the benefit of this worth the administrative burden it entails?
It is this that is the intellectual test to ensure that the tax money is used as effectively as possible and when it comes to different interests. Ultimately, it is this chamber that has to weigh that. Should there be a large state super-register with all information about everyone? Then one must weigh the benefit it can bring against what potential harm could arise from such a register.
Mathias Tegnér (S)
Madam Speaker! I thank the Minister for the answer. The Minister began by talking about proposals from the Social Democrats from 2011. Let me then be clear regarding our policy: Yes, it is correct that we Social Democrats think that the wealthiest in society should pay more in tax. Yes, we mean that increasing inequality is a problem. Yes, we mean that it is indecent that a large bus of the world's wealthiest people own as much as half of the earth's population. Yes, we see, just like the OECD, IMF and the World Bank, how inequality in the world breaks down our international trade systems and threatens the free trade that has served us well. Yes, growing inequality is a threat to Swedish growth and Swedish companies. Yes, we Social Democrats are for a major tax reform. Yes, we mean that the tax on capital needs to increase. But no, it is not a first step towards a reintroduced wealth tax, and no, we are not for property tax.
There is actually no connection between statistics compiled by SCB and a wealth tax, unless it is the case that the Minister means that if people actually knew how unfair Sweden was, the Swedes would go out of their houses and demand a wealth tax. That seems to be the logic when the Minister reasons.
I think it is an extremely fearful attitude, and I do not believe that is the case. A statistic on households' assets and debts is not a first step towards a wealth tax. Similar registers already exist in Norway, Denmark, and Holland.
During the previous parliamentary term, M, KD and L also took a positive stance towards such a register through an announcement. Now it seems as if they have shifted. Could it be that those who claim that it is SD that rules the government are right? Why else does the government hesitate when heavyweights such as the Fiscal Policy Council, the Financial Supervisory Authority and last but not least the Riksbank advocate for the proposal? Again: Will the government present a proposal for a register of assets and debts?
Statsrådet Niklas Wykman (M)
Madam Speaker! As I have already stated, preparation of this matter is underway. Preparation is also underway at the Ministry of Justice regarding the debt side of the economy. This concerns debt registers and many other proposals that came out of the over-indebtedness investigation, which are important to prevent households from being exposed to taking on debts that they cannot pay back. It creates deep human problems and, ultimately, potentially also problems for the economy of society as a whole that it functions in that way.
My assessment is that it is a wise order to start there and then take one step at a time and further consider how one can improve the statistics on the supply side in Sweden. One can ask why we do not take part in the statistics that other countries keep. That is an example of a question for the Riksbanken to answer - not for me. Could it improve things? Can one perform random sampling where one checks certain data points at certain times instead of checking everything always? Is there a middle ground one can take where one does not make this attractive for thieves, bandits and criminals or states that wish Sweden ill, but still does it as well as possible for the authorities that have to make difficult economic decisions?
Madam Speaker! My answer to the question asked is therefore very clear. It is unfortunate, but that is how Sweden works: These issues are being addressed. We are working calmly and methodically to restore order, safety, and stability in Sweden.
Work is currently ongoing, primarily on the debt side of the economy. I think it is wise to sort out that part first. In parallel, one can continue to work on how to improve decision-making bases in all other parts as well. But to go from there to the conclusion that we should now collect 114 variables and billions of data points across all Swedes all the time is a very large step. As I see it, there are many good middle grounds to choose from here to improve decision-making bases and obtain the best decisions possible.
I believe it is important to remember everyone who says that this affects the margin and that one must weigh all risks against that. It is our responsibility in the Riksdag and in the government.
Source: The Swedish Parliament. The speeches come from the open data of the Riksdag, translated into English by AI, which may contain errors.