Response to interpellation 2024/25:87 on the dimensioning of upper secondary education

Utbildningsministern Johan Pehrson (L)

Madam Speaker! I have been asked what measures I intend to take to ensure that all principals take responsibility for the dimensioning of upper secondary education in accordance with the legislation.

I want to begin by emphasizing that the government is concerned that employers in various industries should find the personnel they need to meet their competence supply. Vocational training within both upper secondary school and municipal adult education plays an important role in ensuring that more people enter employment.

To improve the supply of skills and facilitate for more people to enter employment, the government is prioritizing funds for more places within both the university colleges and the vocational adult education so that access to such education is improved and more people can quickly enter employment. During the autumn, a new form of education, a national vocational education, which the government has taken the initiative for, has also started. The new educations are at the upper secondary level and are conducted as a pilot activity during the period 2024-2026. The form of education has its starting point in the university college model.

The Government is also investing in the upper secondary school's apprenticeship programs by proposing an increase in the apprenticeship allowance in the budget bill for 2025, a cost allowance to the student to cover the extra costs for food and travel that an apprenticeship program can entail. The Government assesses that the apprenticeship allowance should increase from 1,000 kronor per month to 1,500 kronor per month starting from 2025.

The Government has received reports from the Yrkesvuxutredningen (Changing careers as an adult, SOU 2024:16) and the Investigation on the future of vocational higher education (The future of vocational higher education - stable, efficient and sustainable, SOU 2023:31), whose proposals are currently being prepared within the Government Offices. During the autumn, the Investigation on more paths to working life (U 2022:03) is also expected to submit proposals that will contribute to securing the supply of skills and at the same time contribute to more students receiving the knowledge they need to become employable and be able to support themselves.

The Riksdag's decision on the bill Dimensioning of upper secondary education for better skills supply (prop. 2021/22:159) means that the labor market's needs shall be weighed in when planning and dimensioning certain educations at the upper secondary level. The legislative changes entered into force on 1 July 2023 and are applied for the first time regarding education that begins in 2025. The reform implies, among other things, that when an individual applies for approval as a principal for an upper secondary school, it is required that the education in question contributes to both meeting the demand of young people and filling a labor market need.

When a principal decides which upper secondary education programs or programs in the municipal adult education shall be offered and how many places the programs shall have, consideration shall be taken of both the demand from young people and adults as well as the needs of the labor market. This applies to both municipalities and individual principals. For individual principals, the obligation is based on what follows from the principal's approval.

Municipalities have a responsibility to offer a diverse range of educations. In order to achieve a purposeful range, municipalities shall cooperate with at least two other municipalities when educations within upper secondary school and adult education (komvux) are planned, dimensioned, and offered. It is not a requirement that individual providers be part of the cooperation, but the government considers that there is nothing preventing municipal and private providers from cooperating regarding the planning and dimensioning of the range of educations. In a municipality's assessment of whether a diverse range is offered, the municipality may also take into account educations offered by private providers with school units in the municipality.

The Government is closely following the implementation of the reform.

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Paula Örn (S)

Madam Speaker! I thank the Minister for Education for the answer. Even though the Minister for Education has significantly more years here in the chamber than I do, I must take the opportunity to welcome him to the education issues.

It is pleasing that the Minister shares our view on how important it is for employers in different industries to find the staff they need to meet the demand for skills. Unfortunately, it still seems to be even more important for the SD government to protect the opportunities for private school owners to make money from the high school students' education.

A problem I highlight in my interpellation is that the dimensioning reform risks running into a ditch, as many independent principals do not seem to intend to adhere to the reform, as the minister has just explained. From many places in the country, I receive testimonies from municipal organizations that are now working with the dimensioning issue.

One can, for example, see very clearly that the number of places within society and economy will need to be reduced to adapt to the labor market's needs. But the independent schools do not intend to reduce the number of places – on the contrary. When the municipal schools say that they plan to scale back the economics program, the following answer is received from the independent schools: "How great! Then we can expand with an economics class in the autumn of 2025." They see an opportunity to increase their market share rather than taking responsibility for ensuring that students receive an offering that corresponds to the labor market's needs.

In Skolverkets survey on the work with the reform, almost half of the municipalities answer that the independent principals are a major problem for the implementation of the dimensioning reform.

Madam Speaker! What does the Minister for Education answer my question with? "The government is closely following the implementation of the reform." But what has the Minister seen while he closely follows the implementation of the reform? Does Johan Pehrson not see the problems that we Social Democrats are receiving strong signals about from various sides across the country? Does he not see that it risks becoming yet another area where the bourgeoisie has been too naive? Does he not see, to use the Minister's own words, the charlatans who only want to make money from the students by offering as many places as possible in the cheaper preparatory programs?

Madam Speaker! It was indeed the previous Social Democratic government that submitted the proposition on the dimensioning issue to the Riksdag, but now it is Johan Pehrson who is responsible for the implementation of the reform. I am seriously concerned by the signals regarding the introduction of the reform.

In the interpellation, I asked what measures the minister intended to take, as I assumed that he shares my concern that the reform will not work when not everyone takes responsibility in accordance with the legislation. But I must reformulate my question: Does the Minister for Education not see the problems that have arisen in the work of introducing the reform and that many independent school providers do not seem to intend to either care about the labor market's needs or the students' right to an education that actually makes them employable?

(Applause)

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Caroline Helmersson Olsson (S)

Madam Speaker! I welcome the Minister for Education's response and his focus on skills supply after some, to say the least, stumbling years. It is interesting that the Minister says the government prioritizes more places within YH and vocational adult education. But however the figures are manipulated—first you cut down, and then you put back a little bit afterwards—the fact remains: In 2022, the Social Democratic-led government spent over 5 billion on adult education. That is much more than the appropriation for 2025. In most people's world, in my case at least, fewer resources mean fewer places, not more.

No one should doubt that the commitment and ambitions in these issues among me and the Social Democrats are very great. During our years in government, we tripled the funding for vocational training within komvux and doubled it for yrkeshögskolan. We invested in combination programs, increased validation, invested in language training, and introduced a right to komvux. We invested in learning centers, and we introduced a trial with industry schools, a concept for training within narrower industries and vocational areas.

I am proud that we restructured the education policy with regard to the labor market's needs and that the Riksdag voted through the reform that we are debating today. The law is in place, and extensive work is ongoing across the country. It is a lot of work and a lot of cooperation. But we are also receiving worrying signals, both from different parts of the country and from different industries. They are worried about how this will go. I hope that the signal has also reached the ministry. The government must follow this closely, as the minister says. But the reform must also be nurtured and developed.

Another thing that can disrupt the planning and dimensioning work is the new form of education, national vocational training. The adult education inquiry that we commissioned received an additional directive after the change of government to look into this. The government did not wait for the inquiry to be completed but started a pilot, launched it, quite simply. A mandate was given to YH, initially without any regulation. And that is how you can do it. You can test things. You can do pilots. But there must be some order and structure, I think.

Now the investigation has been on consultation. There are many consultation bodies that are negative towards this proposal. They say that they do not see any need for a new form of education and point to risks that there will be competition between the new vocational education and yrkesvux and that it will become confusing for students and employers with parallel systems within the same form of education. Several advocate for investments in yrkesvux, just as the investigation proposes. SKR advises against it, as do individual municipalities and regions, and the three central trade union organizations as well. I think it is interesting that a heavy body such as Industriarbetsgivarna says that they think this should not be implemented.

I want to ask the Minister: Have the signals of concern that both I and Paula Örn have presented here in the chamber reached Johan Pehrson? Does the government have an ambition to nurture and develop the reform? How can the new vocational education be included in the dimensioning work?

(Applause)

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Utbildningsministern Johan Pehrson (L)

Madam Speaker! I am the first to emphasize the importance of changing the free school system quite significantly. It should have happened earlier, but the previous government could not gather a majority for this over eight years. Now, my absolute assessment is that there is a majority. We will see what the opposition will say about this, but I hope we can get some support. It is clear that there is one or another free school magician who today runs schools in a way that is unacceptable, to use a political power word.

Back to the question about investments! I have said a few times here that one must distinguish between the measures that were made during the pandemic and the proposals that the outgoing Social Democratic government had for the coming years. The last message they left was that the pandemic had ended and that they intended not to plan for more courses. From that normal situation, I still mean that we are making large investments. Then, I have great respect for the opinion that even larger investments can be made.

Regarding vocational higher education, I think it is important to highlight that this form of education plays a major role, especially a bit higher up in the educational pyramid. What was said here about increased focus on validation remains. It is very difficult to be against that. We work with industry schools to bring the business sector into the education system, not least private actors who know what requirements exist in the working life and who work together with, for example, municipalities to enable a good supply of, for instance, machinery contractors. It is very welcome.

We also see how in some municipalities there is close cooperation with large industries. We have seen it in Västerås, where it still occurs. We see it in Ludvika with Hitachi. Sandviken is another such example. Municipality and industry work closely to ensure that the individual has the opportunity to get work after education and to meet the need that exists for competence supply in industries that are important for the region and the nation.

My starting point is that I think well of the Social Democrats. If this reform, which is to be implemented with full force in a couple of months, is carried out, we must see how it goes. But if the question is whether I also receive signals about deficiencies in the Swedish education system in general and in this area in particular, the answer is yes. The foundations for the Swedish knowledge nation have not been properly nurtured. Therefore, we are now working with an increased focus not least on primary school, but also on ensuring that upper secondary school can meet a better future. I hope to be able to return to the issue. As I said, this has not started to apply yet, but we are following it very closely.

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Paula Örn (S)

Madam Speaker! It was good to hear that the Minister shares the problem picture that we see regarding the risks associated with the introduction of the reform.

However, I am a bit puzzled by the Minister's praise of the vocational schools, which the government has chosen to stop the attempt with. It is welcome if the Minister now instead shares our view that the vocational schools are an important part of the vocational education package. In that case, it is a welcome announcement.

But to return to the upper secondary school and the dimensioning, it still results in the municipal principals risking falling into a completely impossible situation. Either they have to break the law in order to continue to be able to compete and offer study-preparatory programs, or we could end up in a situation where one cannot study, for example, social studies or economics at a municipal upper secondary school. Is it freedom of choice, Johan Pehrson, that there should be no municipal schools that offer anything other than vocational programs?

When the independent schools maintain and choose to increase their places in the more lucrative programs, the risk is that it is the municipal schools that will have to provide the vocational programs, the programs that we know need to increase. It is those programs that lead to jobs where industry after industry is crying out for labor. But we must all collectively admit that we have not succeeded in making these programs sufficiently attractive in the eyes of our young people.

Perhaps the reintroduction of basic eligibility, which was so unfortunately removed by the minister's predecessor Jan Björklund, can contribute to increasing the attractiveness of the vocational programs again. Young people do not want to close doors to the future.

We must also do much more so that more young people see the opportunities with upper secondary vocational education. The industries must do more to increase the attractiveness through good working conditions and opportunities. We want young people to choose vocational education because that is where they see the future. They must also be given the conditions to make informed choices. I am quite sure that most young people believe that when a number of places are offered, it also means that it is an education that leads to jobs. Right now, we risk deceiving young people into education that leads to unemployment.

It seemed as if we were in complete agreement on the idea of the reform, since the Liberals fully supported it when it was voted through in the Riksdag. But the question now is still: How does the Minister for Education intend to act so that the reform's intentions become a reality?

I listened to the Minister's Saturday interview, and there he was very clear that there are regulations that allow the free school magicians to make money by not offering libraries or laboratory rooms. Then perhaps one could think that it should not be possible for these free school charlatans to make money by tricking youth into programs that do not lead to jobs. For example, the Minister could set requirements that the independent operators must participate in the cooperation areas where it is required that the municipal schools must participate.

The Minister also says that he sees a need for sanctions. Then one can ask Johan Pehrson which sanctions could be directed at schools that, for example, choose to increase the number of places in the economics program when we see that it needs to decrease. Will there be any action from the Minister for Education, or is it as one might fear: much talk and little workshop?

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Caroline Helmersson Olsson (S)

Madam Speaker! Here, it is a matter of interpreting kindly, I think. ME-schools and all upper secondary schools where there is a collaboration with the working life are very good. I spoke about vocational schools. There is one in Åsbro, near Örebro for the record. There is a car painting school in Falun. They train two-thirds of the industry's needs.

They will shut it down. There are no applicants because the government shut down the vocational school experiment. I am interpreting charitably. I look forward to a new proposal. Call it something else if the name is unpleasant. But I believe in it. There will be a new proposal. I am sure of that.

I did not receive any answer to the question regarding national vocational training. How is this to be synchronized with the dimensioning work that is ongoing in the regions and municipalities?

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Utbildningsministern Johan Pehrson (L)

Madam Speaker! I really thank you for the sign language interpretation. It is appreciated and noted.

I am also glad that we can agree that not least the industry's important bridge into ordinary upper secondary school and also on the vocational adult education side is important. This creates the conditions for people to become self-sufficient and gain their own power over their lives and to solve the skills shortage in the industry. This applies to, for example, mechanical contractors, but there are also others.

As I said in my answer, there is nothing preventing cooperation from occurring. Even though I note that it is bitter in some places between different actors in a municipality, there are other examples where it can look a bit better. I think that cooperation should be had on this.

On a more philosophical plane, one can say that the interest from the chamber, and I myself in no way excepted, to govern education and what is learned is extensive. But I am heavily overtaken in the left lane by the Social Democrats. It is fortunate that this does not apply to the previous interpellation debate on academic freedom. That is a major dividing line where we all agree.

Of course, it is very important that many collaborate so that interest in reading more of vocational training increases. When I am out at upper secondary schools with vocational-level education, I meet young people who are having it quite tough. They are struggling through their vocational training.

Regardless of whether they are to become builders, concrete workers or electricians, we know that these are important professions that are needed. There is a strong demand and it provides good opportunities for empowerment in life for the individual, and Sweden needs, as stated, to be built greener.

But I also see that they have it tough. The default setting that they also have to manage the university preparation is difficult. That is what the guys and girls I sit down with eye to eye say in any case. They have to exert themselves enormously. What I want, and what I assume the participants in the interpellation debate want, is that we avoid anyone being knocked out because of this.

It is a matter of ensuring that one takes advantage of the opportunity to have a study relief in order to be able to educate oneself later in life. That opportunity exists, but it is quite difficult to deliver on. It is a strong starting point that one is reading this today. I also meet the industry, which says that this was previously an obstacle. Now we have implemented this, and I support it fully. Now we must ensure that we deliver on it.

The most important thing is – shall I conclude with, before I say that I follow the question – that young people are undergoing a high school education. We know that if one has completed a high school education, one has significantly better chances of making it in life and of getting any employment at all. We know that it is absolutely crucial.

When I say that I will follow the question, it is also about how the pilot projects are to be integrated. There is also a dimensioning issue here. Fundamentally, it is important right now to have many ways into education. We know that there are too many who today do not get into any education. Diversity does not harm anything in itself.

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Paula Örn (S)

Madam Speaker and Minister for Education! It was an important reform, and we see now that it risks going completely wrong. We were perhaps not as clear as we Social Democrats had wished when the bill was tabled in the Riksdag. To quote the Minister for Education, it is sometimes sweet and salty in collaborations. In our case, it was well more salty than sweet, because we were forced to leave the independent principals outside the mandatory cooperation.

Now that we see that it is not working, that they are not part of the mandatory cooperation, would it not then be appropriate for the Minister to take responsibility and ensure that we change, tweak, the reform so that we get the independent principals included in the cooperation? It works in some places, for example in the Gothenburg region, where I come from. There, the independent principals are included. In that case, it is reasonable that we demand that all principals be included.

It is also reasonable for the Minister to answer this: When the Minister for Education follows the reform so closely, what conclusions does the Minister for Education draw? What measures does he take? What kind of proposals will come from the government?

I conclude by returning to the famous Saturday interview. It is interesting that the minister there speaks much like the Liberal Party's party leader. But in this chamber, the Minister for Education is nevertheless the Minister for Education and represents the government.

Then it will be interesting to hear: What does the government intend to do? In which issues does the Minister for Education have the government base with them to take measures regarding the independent schools (friskolorna)?

We Social Democrats stand ready to cooperate every day of the week to regulate this for real. But from the government's side, it seems to be mostly talk and very little workshop right now.

(Applause)

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Utbildningsministern Johan Pehrson (L)

Madam Speaker! I am pleased that many are listening to Ekot's Saturday interview. More people should. It does not only concern the interview with me.

It is an important matter that one takes responsibility for collaborations generally speaking. This applies regardless of whether it concerns the major tax reform that the then Folkpartiet, Liberalerna, carried out regarding the importance of half remaining. It is easy for one to quickly run away and say that the others are strange, that they did not want to, this and that, and so one backs out of what was agreed upon. That can happen. If reality changes, one must change opinion. However, that education should pay off is hardly an opinion that one should change.

The proposition is the Social Democrats'. We feel that this is not the biggest problem with Swedish education policy. We are following the developments closely. It is not least as I said, and as Paula Örn confirms, that one can, at least in the good Gothenburg spirit, solve this at the municipal level.

That is the thought one has. It looks different across Sweden. Therefore, it is assumed that it is in the interest of all municipal school authorities to have good cooperation also with other actors, regardless of whether it is a company or a foundation.

I have the task of looking into what will start to apply in 2025. It is a year that has not occurred yet, I want to emphasize. Everyone is aware of that. When we see how it goes, it is clear that we follow this reform just as we follow others. It shall lead to a strengthening and to more young people receiving a high school education that preferably leads to jobs.

The interpellations debate was hereby concluded.

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